Life After Losing My Mom at 21, Marrying an Abusive Alcoholic, and Going to Jail for Defending Myself

Matt (00:00:03):
I am Matt Handy, and you're listening to My Last Relapse. How's it going, Rachel?

 

Rachel (00:00:08):
It's going well.

 

Matt (00:00:09):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (00:00:10):
Busy, busy.

 

Matt (00:00:11):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (00:00:11):
Yep.

 

Matt (00:00:12):
Okay. So tell me about you.

 

Rachel (00:00:14):
About me. So I am in long-term recovery.

 

Matt (00:00:18):
All right. What does long-term mean?

 

Rachel (00:00:22):
I think long-term recovery means consistency in sobriety for I think five plus years. That's what I think long-term recovery is. But then again, that's controversial because then you could sit there and say, I'm in long-term recovery. I've seen people that have several years of recovery, and they're not where I would assume that they would be. Does that make sense?

 

Matt (00:00:53):
No. Yeah. And then there's the people that say, you have to be in recovery for as long as you used for to say you're in long-term recovery. Have you heard that?

 

Rachel (00:01:03):
Yeah. That's weird.

 

Matt (00:01:04):
That's crazy. Because a lot of people use for a long time.

 

Rachel (00:01:07):
Yeah. I just say long-term recovery because I'll have 10 years next month. So to me, that's long. That's a long time for me, especially when I couldn't even piece together 12 hours. You know what I'm saying? So that to me is just long-term. And to me, when I think about that, that's like, God, that's 10 years.

 

Matt (00:01:27):
That's a long time. That is long-term recovery, for sure.

 

Rachel (00:01:30):
Okay. Yeah.

 

Matt (00:01:31):
Yeah. I mean, I think five years is they base that all off those Air Force studies.

 

Rachel (00:01:37):
Oh, really?

 

Matt (00:01:37):
Yeah. There was a series of studies. It's really expensive to train Air Force fighters, fighter pilots, so they want them to stay sober. Well, there's a lot of alcoholism, specifically with pilots. And so yeah, the military did a bunch of series of studies on alcoholism, and one of the findings was that if you can sustain five years of sobriety, you have a 95% chance of staying sober forever. So that is a very widely accepted number of, after five years, you're kind of out of the woods.

 

Rachel (00:02:14):
And I've seen people go back out after five, 10 years. 15. Yeah, it's crazy. I just refuse.

 

Matt (00:02:20):
Yeah, I mean, so first of all, it's alcohol and drugs, and they're really good at what they do. And so the one person that is kind of going through this right now in this market, he had 10 years, he openly talks about this. He's back now. And when he broke down what happened to me, it makes sense what happened. He knows what happened. And it's funny because after that amount of time, you would think, okay, you can avoid that. But life happens.

 

Rachel (00:02:57):
Life does happen,

 

Matt (00:02:59):
Right?

 

Rachel (00:03:00):
Life does happen. And I wonder, that person you're talking about, did they say, oh, they stopped going to meetings? Is that what they said?

 

Matt (00:03:08):
No, it was traumatic events piled on top of self will.

 

Rachel (00:03:16):
Okay. Yeah. So it's just not utilizing tools and being overwhelming. And honestly, it comes down to not talking about things. You know what I mean? And holding it in. I mean, honestly. So I'm just really grateful. I have a good group of women and some guys as well. My husband's actually in recovery as well. And well, he'll be in long-term this month at six years. So yeah. So I'm very grateful that I have the woman that I have today, it's small, small group, but

 

Matt (00:03:48):
He's in long-term, so it's zero to one. So once you hit five years, you've been clean for five full years.

 

Rachel (00:03:56):
Yeah.

 

Matt (00:03:57):
He's in long-term recovery.

 

Rachel (00:03:59):
Long-term recovery.

 

Matt (00:04:00):
That's awesome. That that's awesome. I relapsed after three plus years, and I've got 18 months again.

 

Rachel (00:04:08):
Okay, that's awesome.

 

Matt (00:04:10):
And it was my shortest relapse. This podcast is called My Last Relapse because it was the most pivotal event of my life. I had gotten clean, I robbed a bank, and I had a shitload hanging over my head. And then I fulfilled all my obligations to the courts. And it was very easy for me not to use when I had consequences over my head because I didn't want the consequences.

 

Rachel (00:04:37):
Correct.

 

Matt (00:04:38):
But I always still wanted to get high. And so once I didn't have that accountability and that responsibility anymore, it was very easy for me to use. But that relapse taught me, so I had enough good shit happen in that three plus years, and enough had changed that when I relapsed, I relapsed for days. And when I relapsed, I was immediately miserable. I didn't have any, ultimately, negative consequences hit me because of this. So what ended up happening, the fucked up thing that happened was I got involved with my family again after 10 plus years of not being involved with them. I had a daughter, and when I relapsed, they took our daughter from us. So my mom has our daughter and won't give her back.

 

Rachel (00:05:37):
How old is she?

 

Matt (00:05:37):
She's four.

 

Rachel (00:05:39):
Sorry to hear that. That's awful.

 

Matt (00:05:41):
And it's been like a year and a half, and we're fighting that. We have this court appointed bullshit going on, and it sucks. But this is a consequence, right?

 

Rachel (00:05:51):
It is a consequence.

 

Matt (00:05:52):
And there's a plan for her to come back, but it's like

 

Rachel (00:05:56):
It's not happening your time.

 

Matt (00:05:57):
Well, yeah. And we're having a baby in December.

 

Rachel (00:06:01):
Congratulations.

 

Matt (00:06:01):
Thank you.

 

Rachel (00:06:02):
Little boy or girl?

 

Matt (00:06:03):
Little girl. Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:06:05):
Girl, dad.

 

Matt (00:06:06):
Yeah. Tell me about it. I was so excited to have a boy.

 

Rachel (00:06:12):
Just keep trying.

 

Matt (00:06:13):
Hell no. I'll end up with five girls.

 

Rachel (00:06:17):
I'm one of seven. So there's six girls. Girls. I'm one of seven, so there's six girls and one boy.

 

Matt (00:06:22):
So I'm the oldest of 10, and there's six boys and four girls.

 

Rachel (00:06:26):
See? Big, big family. I came from a big, big family,

 

Matt (00:06:29):
But I'll have only girls because of how fucked up I've been my whole life. So God knows me.

 

Rachel (00:06:37):
Yeah. So it's funny, we have a 16-year-old daughter, and then I have, he's two year little boy, a little blessing boy over there. Didn't started all over at 39. And I'm 41 with 16 and 2-year-old. So it is a blessing. It's challenging, but it's a blessing for sure.

 

Matt (00:06:55):
Yeah. And it's one of those things, so we'll go into your story a bit, but it's one of those things where it's like when we are actively in the shit, it's the last thing on our mind, and it's one of the best things that'll ever happen to us.

 

Rachel (00:07:11):
That's what we're here for, is to have families. I can't fathom not having children, even though at one point I was selfish and, and I was partying, drinking and all that. And I had my daughter at 25, pregnant at 24, but she changed my life, and she's a big part of my recovery. But there was a point in time I was like, I don't want kids. Just a self-centered view, and that's what we're here for. And the joy that it brings is incomprehensible. So it's just real. I'm very grateful that I'm able to be a mother today and that I was blessed with a little boy because to me, that's God doing for me what I couldn't do for myself. For sure.

 

Matt (00:08:00):
And we're like, we're humans. So we have a biological call to have kids, but when women say, I don't want to have kids, I immediately go, I wouldn't want to birth kids either. That sounds, so I've been doing research on how traumatic to the body having a baby is.

 

Rachel (00:08:17):
It is traumatic.

 

Matt (00:08:18):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (00:08:20):
Both of my deliveries were traumatic. The first one was with the midwife, the second one, I tried to go as long as I could without getting epidural, but it's like you forget about it once you hold the baby in the aftermath. It kind of sucks for a little bit, but it's just like it's so worth it.

 

Matt (00:08:39):
Did you have postpartum?

 

Rachel (00:08:42):
Well, let me think. That's a big age gap to go back, right? So with my daughter, I think once I stopped breastfeeding, then I started drinking and I was already kind of depressed, partying all the things. I had alcoholic, alcoholic in the making at the beginning of the disease before it got worse.

 

Matt (00:09:09):
Wait, you said in the making?

 

Rachel (00:09:11):
Yeah.

 

Matt (00:09:11):
Okay, let's do this. How'd you get there?

 

Rachel (00:09:15):
How did I get where

 

Matt (00:09:17):
To alcohol in the making at 25?

 

Rachel (00:09:21):
I say alcohol in the making of where it went to. It went to, okay,

 

Matt (00:09:27):
I get you.

 

Rachel (00:09:27):
I thought I was always, I didn't think I was always an alcoholic. My family always thought I had some alcoholic tendencies. A couple of them thought I was an alcoholic. I didn't see that. I thought I was partying, having fun, doing all the things. But what I say is in the making of where it led me to the bottom of the barrel of it drinker, I wasn't just like a okay, a binge. No, that wasn't me. That wasn't me. I mean, I got down, and maybe that's why I haven't relapsed by the grace of God is because of how bad I got. And to me, that was enough.

 

Matt (00:10:07):
Yeah. Did you have an enabling or codependent relationship with your family?

 

Rachel (00:10:12):
What's funny? I'm glad you asked that, because I'm really big on codependency anonymous with, I own a sober living for women, and I'm big on that. And then I really feel like everybody's codependent. And thinking back, I also work in treatment, so I think I'm working with families and spouses and loved ones and children and all that. And you see the enablement, you see the codependency, and I was like, for a while, for several years, I was like, man, I wasn't, I was not at all enabled. We didn't grow up with money. I mean, you're seven kids. I'm like, that wasn't enabled. I wasn't all these things. However, my ex-husband, who I was with my daughter's biological father, he enabled me. He was an alcoholic too. So in the event I was doing all these things ended up in jail from domestic violence between him and I. He enabled me in buying me wine when I got out. You see what I'm saying? So it was always like he had to have his drinking buddy. So I was enabled.

 

Matt (00:11:18):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (00:11:19):
Okay. And the codependency? No, there wasn't there, but it was codependency on. As long as I have my daughter, okay, that's not being taken away from me. There's codependent love there. As long as I have her, I'm okay. I'm okay to drink. I'm not harming anything. My daughter's not taken away. I don't have any, you know what I mean? There was not enough consequences there. So there was codependency on her love. As long as I had her, I felt love, even though I had zero self-worth, and then I was enabled 1000% by my ex-husband.

 

Matt (00:11:51):
Yeah, it's, in retrospect, these are easier to identify, but especially when you're going through that, especially with a kid, it's like people think that codependency is a two-way street, and it's not necessarily right. A baby cannot be codependent on you. They are dependent on you, but you can definitely have a codependent relationship with the love that you get from that child. And it's hard to self cannot critique self. It's very hard for me to realize the fucked up shit that I'm doing, unless it's forefront like character defects to the max.

 

Rachel (00:12:31):
Right, right.

 

Matt (00:12:32):
But codependency is a hard one to catch. And the hardest part about it is for the family to have to admit that they're contributing to the problem.

 

Rachel (00:12:41):
Oh, yeah. I mean, the families are the hardest to work with. They are. And I have to tell them to, when I'm starting to work with these women, the sober living at the time, you have to back up

 

Matt (00:12:51):
For sure.

 

Rachel (00:12:51):
You got to back away and let me give you some resources. And it just keeps these ladies sick, keeps these ladies sick and the family sick at the end of the day because everybody has a part. And I do 100% agree with that. But yeah, the codependency for sure, I felt loved because I had my daughter, and that's the only time. So when I was ripped away from her in my eyes ripped away and I went out of state for treatment, that was the hardest thing I ever had to do.

 

Matt (00:13:20):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:13:21):
Hardest.

 

Matt (00:13:22):
How long were you gone?

 

Rachel (00:13:24):
Just a few months. My sister set up treatment for me in Arizona in 2015. I was actually in the hospital when she came and talked to me about it, and she had everything set up, and the first thing out of my mouth was, no Carter, that's my daughter's name. I was like, no, I can't leave her. Who's going to watch her have an alcoholic husband where she, they're like, all the sisters chi down, she's covered all that. I was like, I can't. I said, when do I leave? And she goes, tomorrow. I said, I can't. I was just trying to manipulate it when let me, there's this reason this and working with these families and working in treatment, I see myself in all of these people. That's why I have to be patient because I was there. So I ended up going, I ended up leaving and I went,

 

Matt (00:14:12):
Yeah. The negotiation part about getting well is always interesting to watch.

 

Rachel (00:14:16):
Yes.

 

Matt (00:14:17):
Because everybody recognizes there's a problem, but the cost, typically, if you can afford it, the money is not the issue. The access to the care is almost an afterthought unless you cannot afford it. But what's always prevalent is the negotiation around the amount of time they're gone, when they're going to go,

 

Rachel (00:14:40):
Because they're losing control. They're about to give up the one thing that they've loved for their whole life, and that's made them feel good, which is alcohol and drugs. And now it's like, okay, you're taking that away from me, and now you're going to take away my time when I'm going to go, you're telling me all that what to do. That's what I didn't like. You're going to tell me what to do. I didn't like being told what to do. No alcoholic or addict likes to be told what to do

 

Matt (00:15:01):
For sure. Definitely.

 

Rachel (00:15:07):
And I tell the woman all the time that when I speak to them, I say, you know what? And this is coming from experience. We don't like authority. We don't like rules. We don't like structure and accountability, but we thrive. Thrive in it. We thrive in it.

 

Matt (00:15:22):
Yeah. Prisons are full of fucked up people that are doing extremely well with extreme structure. Right. Okay. So what number are you

 

Rachel (00:15:34):
For what?

 

Matt (00:15:36):
In your siblings?

 

Rachel (00:15:37):
Just take a wild guess.

 

Matt (00:15:39):
You're the youngest

 

Rachel (00:15:40):
Middle.

 

Matt (00:15:41):
Okay.

 

Rachel (00:15:44):
Yeah. And I think a couple of my family members have struggled in a sense, have overly drank, but not to the point they could just stop it. You know what I mean? Our background, we come from Louisiana, so it was very accepted there.

 

Matt (00:16:00):
What part of Louisiana?

 

Rachel (00:16:03):
My grandfather lived in the French quarter in New Orleans. My mom kind of grew up in Mettie, and Kenner was born in Slidedale, Louisiana.

 

Matt (00:16:12):
Do you know Ted Brooms?

 

Rachel (00:16:14):
Yeah.

 

Matt (00:16:14):
He was here yesterday.

 

Rachel (00:16:15):
Yes.

 

Matt (00:16:16):
He's from right there.

 

Rachel (00:16:18):
Yeah, I know him. Know him well. Yeah. And then we ended up moving here when I was young, young, young, not even in kindergarten yet. And thank God that my mother did that, because I think that to me was normal. Seeing that, I mean, everybody was wasted all the time, all the time. Sitting there smoking cigarettes, playing poker, just drunk all the time.

 

Matt (00:16:44):
You know what? He said the same thing, that alcohol is a big part of the culture.

 

Rachel (00:16:48):
It is huge.

 

Matt (00:16:49):
And it's not really a drug thing down there.

 

Rachel (00:16:52):
No. It's just alcohol. Everybody drinks. You drink bloody Mars in the morning. You know what I mean? But it's kind of cool though, because I got to experience New Orleans and everything with my husband and our sobriety. So that was kind of cool.

 

Matt (00:17:07):
Such a cool city.

 

Rachel (00:17:09):
It's a very cool city, and everybody's really, really nice there.

 

Matt (00:17:11):
I went for the first time maybe six weeks ago, and it is such a cool city, the history, and it's pretty, I'm from California. I'm from San Diego.

 

Rachel (00:17:24):
San Diego is beautiful,

 

Matt (00:17:25):
Beautiful,

 

Rachel (00:17:26):
Beautiful.

 

Matt (00:17:26):
But we always have this, I had these preconceived notions about what the swamp was.

 

Rachel (00:17:31):
Okay.

 

Matt (00:17:32):
And then I got there. I was like, oh my God, I fucking love this place.

 

Rachel (00:17:35):
It's beautiful.

 

Matt (00:17:36):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:17:37):
It's beautiful.

 

Matt (00:17:39):
They're driving in

 

Rachel (00:17:40):
All the trees with the moss. The moss.

 

Matt (00:17:42):
Yep.

 

Rachel (00:17:42):
It is really beautiful. I mean, there's some really, really pretty parts of Louisiana. The food's good, the cultures, I mean, everybody's just so welcoming there. But yeah, that's my roots. My grandfather spoke Cajun French. I can't speak a lick of it. I don't even know. But yeah, that's the background there. So it was very normalized. And then when we moved here,

 

Matt (00:18:09):
How old were you when you moved here?

 

Rachel (00:18:11):
I was like three. I think I was young, but we were over there every single summer, so a couple months up until I was 14. So we just stayed there at my aunt's house, and that's what we kind of grew up around. That's what was normal to us. All of our family was there, aunt's, cousins and all that. And the amount of, on my mother's side, I've had 1, 2, 3. My mother passed away when I was 21 as well, and that's when we'll get to that. But that's when my drinking got really bad. So I've had, on my mother's side, I've had four people pass away from alcoholism and drug addiction, and then one three from suicide.

 

Matt (00:18:58):
So do you believe in the genetic predisposition?

 

Rachel (00:19:02):
I think it's a apart.

 

Matt (00:19:03):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (00:19:04):
Yeah, for sure. I think there's many parts. I think it's genetics. I think it's social. I think it's trauma is a huge one.

 

Matt (00:19:15):
Yes.

 

Rachel (00:19:15):
I think trauma is the gateway.

 

Matt (00:19:19):
Yeah. I mean, we talk about root causes and core belief systems, and then we're talking about really coping mechanisms. Ultimately, the program says it's a symptom. I like to say that too. But the reality is we're not drinking or doing drugs for the sake of doing drugs or drinking. We're doing it for a reason.

 

Rachel (00:19:44):
Correct. I believe it's 1%. All the other 99% is everything else. I think drinking and using is 1% of the problem.

 

Matt (00:19:56):
Dr. Shah says that genetics loads, loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. Right.

 

Rachel (00:20:05):
But the crazy and genetics do. But however, what I do think is, and I spoke to a therapist about this a while ago. I also did a lot of healing with different things that I had to do besides recovery. I had to work through some traumas and things like that, core beliefs and all that. But she was saying, I was like, so there's seven of us. How come I'm the only one that thinks this way? You know what I mean? She goes, it's all about personality. Your brain chemistry, y'all could all go through the same and you see it all the time, the same amount of trauma, the same amount of things, and it can affect this person differently than it does this. When I said that makes sense. Completely,

 

Matt (00:20:44):
Totally. Yeah. Everybody's geared differently, different temperaments, different personalities.

 

Rachel (00:20:50):
Personality yep.

 

Matt (00:20:52):
And so I was sexually abused as a kid. And actually I think the majority of us are.

 

Rachel (00:21:01):
That is 100%.

 

Matt (00:21:02):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:21:02):
I think that's a hundred percent. You don't realize what that does to a child.

 

Matt (00:21:06):
Right. Well, and then Dr. Shah talks about,

 

Rachel (00:21:11):
I love him.

 

Matt (00:21:12):
Me too.

 

Rachel (00:21:13):
Love

 

Matt (00:21:13):
Me too. He talks about specifically sexual trauma in children. It is also sexual trauma, but a predatory trauma as well, which causes is dissociation. It causes indifference, it causes a bunch of things,

 

Rachel (00:21:31):
Self-worth, all those things.

 

Matt (00:21:34):
And so sexual trauma for an adult is way different as far as the effects that it has on the brain than it does to a child. Right. A child not only does it, there's the robbing of the innocence as well, where you're now having adult thoughts and fears and things in a body that is not chemically geared yet for it

 

Rachel (00:21:55):
No, not at all. So imagine what it does to the brain.

 

Matt (00:21:59):
Yeah, no, it's

 

Rachel (00:22:00):
Awful.

 

Matt (00:22:01):
According to Dr. Shah's theory, the scarring that actually occurs, well, now you've scarred a part of your brain permanently that you now have to live with forever. In a situation where your prefrontal cortex is 20 years off from developing fully

 

Rachel (00:22:19):
And then trying to rewire all that, that takes a lot of time,

 

Matt (00:22:24):
And it takes a very specific environment to rewire it. You cannot be in a unsafe place and learn or rewire. Right. So the majority of our using is always an unsafe situation. So any of that time period that you're using, at any rate, you can be casually drinking. You can be a hard drinker. You could be a binge drinker. You could be in a weekend warrior. It could be whatever it is. If you are under the influence at any given time, even if you're a weekend warrior, that time in between is not enough time to deregulate and then get in a safe space to rewire whatever it is that needs to be rewired. And then the amount of time that it's, they say two years, it takes two years to heal the brain after you've stopped using. So a week isn't shit if you are binging. But typically because of tolerance and because of the way that it's progressive drugs and alcohol, both, you're never having enough time in between your last use in the next one to do any kind of healing.

 

(00:23:34):
So for me, my entire adult life until, so from 16 to 34, 16 to 31, really straight using, prison, nine years in prison in jails, and then years on the streets and being homeless, none of that time accounts for healing. It only accounts for more damage, more trauma, the accumulation of all of the consequences. And so when people do say, you have to be clean for as long as you used, a part of me understands the theory, although I disagree at the core of it, like we do understand the science around it. It's like you can start healing the day you stop, and as long as you stay stopped, the healing is progressive. It

 

Rachel (00:24:27):
And it just depends on what you're doing. You know what I mean?

 

Matt (00:24:30):
Yeah. Because, so I speak from a man's perspective, and I know that we are chemically this, we're humans. But I tell other men that we are, there's four parts of, there's four core pieces of us. There's our mental, emotional, spiritual, and it's mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual. So there's four parts of you that you have to heal simultaneously, or at least get one in check and then another in check, and then another in check. But you have to maintain while you're working on the next one. But unless you get to a point, especially in early sobriety where you're healing all of it, you'll forever have something holding you back. And you see that.

 

Rachel (00:25:17):
It's like whack a mole.

 

Matt (00:25:19):
Yeah, that's actually, yeah. Dr. Shah talks about whack-a-mole, right? It's like you never know which one is going to pop up. I tell people that every single piece of you has gravitational value. So if the goal is to heal and elevate, if you leave one behind, it has gravity and it will constantly pull everything back into it. So it is hard. The easy part is getting clean. The hard part is staying clean.

 

Rachel (00:25:47):
1000%, that's easier. It's the mental health and it'ss your brain. It's just being a slave to the brain of the thoughts. That's what I always try to explain people. I'm like, that's easy. I mean, that was easy for me. Of course, for me, I couldn't have just walked into an AA meeting, got sober. I would've been the one that had alcohol in my cup. That's just me. I didn't really know about aa. I heard little jokes. When I was younger, but once I realized what AA was, I got to learn more about it when I was in treatment, which was good. It was very helpful to understand what it actually was and the root of it. And it saved my life. Going to treatment, saved my life. There's so many hands in it. My sister asked me to go to treatment, saved my life. But I did pray really hard a few days before that, that she came in the hospital. I remember holding that. I would drop my daughter off. She was six, and I would go to this little Walgreens right by my house, and I would get the little screw cap wines. I could put it in my glove apartment. If I got pulled over or whatever, I can just screw that right back on. And I just remember picking it up at nine o'clock in the morning, and I was just like, God, I cannot put this down. And I started crying, and I was just praying to my mom. I was like, please help me. God, please help my mom. I just can't put this down. But I couldn't live with it, and I couldn't live without it. I know I needed help, but I couldn't ask for it. Because I didn't want anybody to know the amount of pain and the amount of alcohol I was drinking. Even though, of course they knew I was drinking more than I let on to be.

 

Matt (00:27:36):
Yeah. People are very aware.

 

Rachel (00:27:38):
My family. Yeah. So I just remember that. And that was my last drink. Actually, no, my last drink I got in the hospital, of course, they kept asking me, I had a gallstone or something. I kept having pain. I wasn't pancreatitis. I kept having pain. I was like, God, this is a gallstone. And they brought a little bag in there. They did x-rays. The nurse kept coming. Are you sure you don't drink? I just drink a couple glasses of wine at night. Mind you have a whole, my bag is full of alcohol in the hospital. I didn't care. I'm sitting there drinking it. No, I just, a couple glasses at night. They're like, well, it looks like a gallstone, but your liver enzymes are a little inflamed and they're off and this and this, and you pass the gallstone. So that's the pain. And she just kept asking me. I just kept lying. And then I just had a realization when I was in that hospital bed. I was like, God, I remember just like it was yesterday. I would look at each arm and I'm like, God, I'm so skinny. I got down to 97 pounds. Geez.

 

Matt (00:28:40):
How tall are you.

 

Rachel (00:28:42):
I'm five, two and a half. I like the half. I got down to 97,

 

Matt (00:28:46):
5, 5 and a half.

 

Rachel (00:28:49):
I got down to 97 pounds. I was looking at each arm. I was like, God, I'm so skinny. Except for when you're a true alcoholic. Your face just stays puffy. And I had bruises everywhere, and I was just doing this, and I wish I could find those pictures. I remember taking pictures of myself in there. I couldn't believe how skinny I was. And I knew God was just like, remember this? It was implanted. It's still implanted in my head. And I walked into the bathroom, take a shower nurse looking at myself, and I'm just like, wow. I'm so skinny. I was just throwing up all the time, throwing up blood. I just throwing up all day. And then I finally just, I hear the dog. Instead of waiting later to drink, I would just drink around the clock just to bypass that. So pass out at night. I'm drunk, wake up feeling like shit. And then over the sink, chugging alcohol just to kind of keep it down, but throwing up at the same time until I could just get it down. And that's just how I live my life those last few years.

 

Matt (00:29:57):
So let's go back to your upbringing.

 

Rachel (00:30:02):
Upbringing. See, one of seven kids. Like I said, my mom moved here, left my dad, I think when I was real young. They had a very rocky marriage. It wasn't good. A lot of fighting. She was a very good mother, but she did drink and did smoke cigarettes and all that, which

 

Matt (00:30:32):
Is normal.

 

Rachel (00:30:33):
It was very normal, especially for that time. She drank a lot of beer, smoked a lot of cigarettes. We had fun childhood though. I mean, there was seven of us. We're always playing. We're always outdoors. My dad used to bring us camping. We did a lot of fun things. We didn't have a lot. Right, for sure. There was just the amount of fighting there was between my mother and my dad. It got bad.

 

Matt (00:31:06):
Are you guys all full-blooded siblings?

 

Rachel (00:31:09):
All of us. Then we have, so there's seven, and then I have a half-sister that's just, and there's a trauma there. My dad cheating on my mother and I have a half sister. She's the youngest of us all, and she's in her twenties, 25, maybe 24. And then my mother and father's first born passed away, and she was seven and a half when we lived in picu, Mississippi. We lived in Louisiana, lived in Piccu, Mississippi from leukemia. So I think after that, it kind of destroyed their marriage. Of course, I couldn't imagine being a mother now, losing a child.

 

Matt (00:31:52):
They say it's the most consistent, deepest pain that somebody will ever experience is losing a child.

 

Rachel (00:31:58):
No way you would've to take me out. There's no way.

 

Matt (00:32:01):
I mean, my wife says the same thing. She does not know. So we don't have our daughter with us on a nightly basis. We see her on the weekends for a couple hours, and it's like, it's been like this for a year and a half now. And she still cries every day. And it's a friction point in our relationship. Like, dude, you can't do anything about it.

 

Rachel (00:32:25):
It's so hard though.

 

Matt (00:32:26):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:32:27):
And I'm sure it's not easy for a man either, but it's just, it's like that when you're mother. It's just like, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. Just

 

Matt (00:32:37):
I know I don't have the same. Also, we found out she was pregnant, and then I robbed a bank a month later, and then I got arrested a week after that, and then I was in treatment for three years. So it was her and the baby for it was just them for years. That was her person. That was her every day. That was her consistency in her recovery too.

 

Rachel (00:33:04):
Right.

 

Matt (00:33:05):
And so it's just been a very difficult thing to deal with,

 

Rachel (00:33:09):
I'm sure. And I'd be crying every day, too. It's hard. It's hard. So I lost her, and then we moved here and things were, it kind of got bad when I was 13, 14. They were fighting so bad. My dad was extremely strict on me, probably because I was the most vocal and would take up for everybody else, and I was very mouthy. Still kind of am just a little bit. But yeah, I was just mouthy and I didn't take any shit. So my mom, we started, I think me and my sister started smoking around 13, 14, but it's like it wasn't looked as bad. So it was accepting. And now I look at that. There's no way in hell if my daughter was smoking cigarettes, I would allow that.

 

Matt (00:34:04):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:34:05):
No way.

 

Matt (00:34:05):
How old are you right now?

 

Rachel (00:34:06):
41.

 

Matt (00:34:07):
So this was a whole different era too though, right?

 

Rachel (00:34:11):
Way different.

 

Matt (00:34:12):
They were still smoking in restaurants when you were a kid.

 

Rachel (00:34:14):
Yes.

 

Matt (00:34:15):
Yeah. Very different climate and just socially different,

 

Rachel (00:34:18):
Just everything different. I don't know. It wasn't probably viewed as that bad. Everybody smoked really. Right? I mean, this was in the nineties, I think. Yeah, it should be in the nineties. Yeah. That was in the nineties. 80 early, early nineties.

 

Matt (00:34:32):
I mean, I was born in 89.

 

Rachel (00:34:33):
Yeah, I was born in 84.

 

Matt (00:34:35):
Yeah, so I was two in 91.

 

Rachel (00:34:38):
Okay,

 

Matt (00:34:39):
So you were what, seven in 91? Yeah, probably. Yeah. You were smoking almost late nineties.

 

Rachel (00:34:45):
Yeah. Yeah.

 

Matt (00:34:47):
Which are a crazy time. The late nineties. So at least where I was growing up, there was the active drug wars. The border wars were happening, but I loved growing up in the nineties.

 

Rachel (00:35:00):
I loved it.

 

Matt (00:35:00):
The cartoons were amazing.

 

Rachel (00:35:03):
Cereal boxes, reading the back of 'em.

 

(00:35:05):
That was our iPhones.

 

Matt (00:35:06):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:35:07):
That was all the games and all that. That was the iPhones on there. We had fun. I mean, that was the time where you don't come home until the street lights come on. I was very tomboy. I was in the bayou. I always catching turtles. I was doing all the things until I,

 

Matt (00:35:20):
Oh, man, that sounds so fun as a kid that

 

Rachel (00:35:22):
It sounds, oh my God, we just had so much fun. And then until I started hanging out with the wrong people. So you are who you hang out with. And I always told my mother, no, you're not. Just because I'm making these those decisions doesn't mean I am now. I look at it different as a parent, even if you have a good head on your shoulders, and I teach my daughter this. I'm very open with my daughter. I'm like, even if you have different morals and values, you're still going to be classified as that you are hang out with. And it's just not, if you don't align with somebody and your beliefs, values, and how you choose to live your life and your decisions, why hang out with that? There's no point. That's how I am today too, with adults. But yeah, I started, I think I just started smoking weed around 13, 14, started drinking. Then I was getting really sick from doing 'em both, and then I just chose to start drinking.

 

Matt (00:36:25):
Really?

 

Rachel (00:36:26):
Yes. I was getting so sick, throwing up, dizzy, and I was like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm just going to drink. So I sucked to drinking and I dabbled in drugs here and there. There's things I really enjoyed, of course, but I couldn't get enough of right. But ultimately, alcohol was my love. Yep.

 

Matt (00:36:51):
Okay. So you started drinking when you were 13. How was school?

 

Rachel (00:36:54):
I was awful.

 

Matt (00:36:55):
Oh, okay.

 

Rachel (00:36:56):
Awful. Well, I was a good student. Okay, hold on. I was a good student up until those things. High school. Let's talk about high school. No, started skipping school, taking Xanax, drinking, skipping school, all that. I ended up going to, I had so many days I would have to do summer school, so I ended up going to this alternative school where it's a fast-paced school, and it's literally one year and a half of a year. Went there, got kicked out from missing and just doing, coming in a school, smelling like a brewery, all the things. I ended up leaving and I needed that consequence. And I came back. They allowed me back a semester later, came back and I graduated with all, and I got a scholarship to college and things like that. But that didn't stop me. I just kind of went right back on into doing my deal.

 

Matt (00:37:56):
What college did you go to?

 

Rachel (00:37:57):
I just went to a community college for literally a semester. That's it. That's the only college I've ever done. Yeah. Drinking. Drinking came in the way of my college career,

 

Matt (00:38:08):
Or did college get in the way of the drinking so that you couldn't,

 

Rachel (00:38:11):
That's exactly what happened. Everything was in the way. If you were in the way of my drinking, then you were done.

 

Matt (00:38:17):
Yeah, for sure.

 

Rachel (00:38:18):
Yeah. So that's where that went.

 

Matt (00:38:22):
Okay. So how'd you get to where you're at?

 

Rachel (00:38:27):
How did I get to where I was at?

 

Matt (00:38:28):
Where are you at in life right now?

 

Rachel (00:38:30):
In life, like career and all that? All

 

Matt (00:38:34):
That.

 

Rachel (00:38:34):
Okay. How did I get there? So I did the full, I went to treatment. I'm going to kind do a little segue into that, but I went to treatment with a detox. I almost left after three days. I almost a made over an iPod because my daughter's, they downloaded, and I say I raised my ex-husband's daughter as well, since she was four and she's 21 now, almost 22, but an iPod, they want to take away from me. So I almost left. I packed up my five luggages. Literally, I brought everything in there, and thank God for the counselor. She came and talked to me and I said, if you don't let me call my daughter and I can't have my iPod, I'm leaving. I was like, that's my daughter's music that she downloaded for me. These are my songs that I have to listen to at the gym.

 

(00:39:21):
I was going to the gym there the three days. Every day they would take us to the YMCA, and I was like, how dare you take that. That's the only, it's just that emotional attachment to that. I have this. That's it. I surrendered the damn iPod. I guess at that time it had some maybe internet capabilities and you couldn't have it like a phone, which I don't think it does. I don't know, possibly. And then they allowed me to call my daughters to check on her. But I talked to that therapist and I wheeled those five luggages right back up in that room and unpacked them. And I ended up staying. I stayed there, finished the detox. We went to, I was in Scottsdale, Arizona, went to a residential facility, and then I did a sober living there called the ranch, and I went there and I fell in love with the sober living. That's what got me thinking there. I was like, this is what I want to do. When I was in treatment there, I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. I think this is my purpose. I loved the texts, what they were doing, all that. I was like, God, I want to do this. So I went to that sober living, and I fell in love with it, and it was scary. I was going to be in a house with a bunch of women, which

 

Matt (00:40:41):
Sucks.

 

Rachel (00:40:42):
Sucks because you hear every woman say that like, oh, I don't like a bunch of women, whatever. I still have a really good friend that I made in there October of 2015. Stay there. Yeah, go ahead.

 

Matt (00:40:54):
That is a very common story.

 

Rachel (00:40:56):
Very common.

 

Matt (00:40:58):
I've been in a woman's bathroom before, and that was scary enough. It was like a house with a bunch of girls, and it was like three girls shared this bathroom. I was like, a bomb went off in there multiple times. I was like, what happened here? I was like, is this normal? What are you talking about? I'm like, oh my gosh. It's disgusting. But there's always that one person, there's always that one person that women seem to connect with. And then it's like a forever friendship.

 

Rachel (00:41:28):
Yes,

 

Matt (00:41:29):
You go to treatment, and nowadays it's way more common to have co-ed treatment centers, but especially back then, it was all gendered.

 

Rachel (00:41:39):
Mine was co-ed. But yeah, I'm sure it was. And there is a lot of, and I think that the gender specific treatment centers can do some people, some good depending on the client. You know what I mean?

 

Matt (00:41:55):
I think a lot of men need gender specific treatment.

 

Rachel (00:41:58):
1000%.

 

Matt (00:42:01):
It's a lot harder to get clean for men and then avoid women.

 

Rachel (00:42:04):
It was hard for me. I'm married at that time, flirting and have letters with a rehab, romance. You know what I mean? Of course, we had a rocky, awful marriage at that time, but I was still married, ended up. So I did that sober living. And to think about it, oh, I have to go in there with a bunch of girls. I think a lot of women have had, they can be catty. And it boils down to jealousy. We're hard on each other. We're so critical of each other, and I don't like that. And I think it just comes down to a jealousy, self-worth insecurity thing. But it's also probably trauma, right? Trauma and the jealousy thing. I don't know. Women just insecurity. And I think it's because not only social media, but they're put to a high standard. And I think women put each other to a high standard.

 

Matt (00:42:59):
It's always interesting to me, the sisterhood, this is just a small example of how this happens, but it'll be like, girls will make terrible decisions about relationships, and they'll be like, oh yeah, you go, girl. It's like, dude, that is a terrible relationship. Why are you telling her to stay with this guy? It's like, well, he's got money. And

 

Rachel (00:43:21):
I don't put myself around people like that.

 

Matt (00:43:22):
Yeah, it's terrible, but it's a very common thing.

 

Rachel (00:43:24):
If I look like shit, tell me I look like shit. If I'm fucking up, tell me.

 

Matt (00:43:28):
Oh, yeah. That's the other thing. If you

 

Rachel (00:43:29):
Think this, now, at the end of the day, I just want honesty. Honesty. But when it comes to my relationships, at the end of the day, ultimately I'm going to make my decision not based on anybody. However, I like truth. If I, for instance, have my core group of friends, they're all in recovery. Well, majority of them are recovery. Some of them are not. And I'll run things past them like, Hey, was I wrong here? What do you think about this? Does this sound this type of way? And they'll straight up, call me on my shit. I like the friends that call me on my shit. Please tell me

 

Matt (00:44:07):
Recovery is conducive to that kind of friendship. That is not a normal experience for people. I think a lot of people who are not in recovery, they get really comfortable with dishonest relationships.

 

Rachel (00:44:18):
That's very true.

 

Matt (00:44:19):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:44:20):
That's very true.

 

Matt (00:44:22):
In order to save our lives, we have to be honest. And so recovery friends,

 

Rachel (00:44:26):
Very surface level.

 

Matt (00:44:27):
Oh yeah. Very superficial, very surface level. But recovery friends, it's like, if I lie to you, I might use. That's the mindset. It's like if I'm not honest about the smallest shit, I'm opening the door to some fucked up shit happening. So we're all like,

 

Rachel (00:44:45):
It's constant guilt.

 

Matt (00:44:46):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (00:44:47):
It's a constant, oh my God, is this? Is this? Yes.

 

Matt (00:44:49):
Yeah. So it is very helpful to have friends who are in recovery. They're just conditioned to be honest about as much as possible. So yeah. So you've got a core group of friends. A lot of you guys work together. You're in business with a bunch of your friends or some of your friends?

 

Rachel (00:45:11):
What do you mean in business

 

Matt (00:45:13):
With the sober livings and that whole situation.

 

Rachel (00:45:16):
I have one sober living, and it's mine, and I don't have it with anybody else.

 

Matt (00:45:19):
Okay. You work hand in hand with other people though.

 

Rachel (00:45:24):
Yeah. So when I got out of treatment course two weeks later, my ex-husband,

 

Matt (00:45:29):
What is your sober living called?

 

Rachel (00:45:31):
Journey Way. Sober Living for Women. It's over in Conroe, Woodlands area. Yeah, it's amazing. Hard but amazing. That's my passion part.

 

Matt (00:45:42):
Dude. Sober living is so hard.

 

Rachel (00:45:44):
It's so hard. It doesn't pay the bills. People think you get rich on 'em, like good luck. Go try. Go try. Unless you have multiple houses, right? Multiple houses, and then your price point and business models a certain way, but you would have to literally just do that. My house is small. It's a side thing. I'm passionate about that because I really feel like that's where the recovery starts. Recovery, not just sobriety.

 

Matt (00:46:09):
I mean, Dr. Shah talks about it where it's one of the most key components, and this is the crazy part. So in California, in a bunch of states, insurance pays for sober living,

 

Rachel (00:46:19):
Correct. But not here.

 

Matt (00:46:20):
Not here. And it's like when you are in treatment for 28 days, you're in a bubble.

 

Rachel (00:46:27):
Correct.

 

Matt (00:46:27):
A very safe, very structured, very regimented. I mean, because they're charging for as much as possible. So you have to be in these seats. And it's like, especially in a smaller community, if you've got 30 and under beds, you're in a very safe, controlled environment.

 

Rachel (00:46:50):
Correct.

 

Matt (00:46:51):
And then you leave, and first of all, your family just wants you there. They want you in treatment because of all the fucked up shit or whatever. And

 

Rachel (00:47:01):
They know you're safe.

 

Matt (00:47:01):
They know you're safe, but then you get out of treatment. They're mad at you for all the fucked up shit that you did. The gears change when you leave treatment.

 

Rachel (00:47:10):
That's why I was terrified to go home.

 

Matt (00:47:12):
Oh, I'm sure.

 

Rachel (00:47:13):
Because my home was my bar. That was my bar. Then I went out sometimes when I got really messed up because I just wanted to continue to go, and I was out of my mind, just irrational, just wild.

 

Matt (00:47:26):
And so people leave treatment and now they're back in the real world. All of the consequences are hitting them. Now, if they're in a P-H-P-I-O-P program, they have a little bit of safety, but you then have to get comfortable enough to accept that as a safe space. Nobody goes into a treatment situation, a hundred percent comfortable, vulnerable, willing. There's a growth into that position. And that is hard. You don't have drugs or alcohol anymore. And so you're trying to cope with all this shit, and

 

Rachel (00:48:03):
Then you have to go home and face everything.

 

Matt (00:48:05):
Then you have to go home and face everything. All the consequences that have been piling up are just waiting for you at the door.

 

Rachel (00:48:10):
And guess what? That guilt and shame is right there at that doorstep as well.

 

Matt (00:48:13):
And they're

 

Rachel (00:48:15):
It's amplified.

 

Matt (00:48:16):
Yep. And they're just waiting to tell you about all the fucked up shit that you've done to them.

 

Rachel (00:48:20):
They have zero treatment as well.

 

Matt (00:48:24):
And so Dr. Shah talks about it. Where he was was like Dr. Shah was Dr. Shah when he was forced to go to sober living. And he tells a story where he is like, wait, I have to go to sober living. Do you know who I am? But he says that if it wasn't for sober living, he doesn't know what would've happen. Sober living is such an important piece of safety, and it's like an extension of that bubble that you can bring with you and go to somewhere else that's safe and structured. And there's accountability, and there's people fighting the same battle as you can. Then plug yourself in right there and have a place to get those things that you need as far as community and safety. But here in Texas, insurance won't pay for it. It

 

Rachel (00:49:18):
Didn't in Arizona either way to pay the pocket.

 

Matt (00:49:20):
That's weird. Is it still like that in Arizona?

 

Rachel (00:49:24):
I don't know. But the place I went to wasn't like a, they had P-H-P-I-O-P because I did the PHP, but their sober livings were not attached. So that's when it has to be attached, which I wish I could do that with my sober living, but there's a lot of loopholes you have to do, which would be amazing. Then you can help more people. But yeah, I had to pay out of pocket for that sober living. It was way worth it.

 

Matt (00:49:45):
So we're going through that right now where we can't get straight answers. We've talked to a lawyer, we've talked to everybody in the local market. We're like, how do we do this ethically, legally, morally, so that we can have supported housing? And it's like we've gotten,

 

Rachel (00:50:00):
Did you speak to Robert Martinez about it?

 

Matt (00:50:04):
No. Who is he?

 

Rachel (00:50:06):
He's the one that would know. He's done it here.

 

Matt (00:50:09):
What program does he have?

 

Rachel (00:50:12):
He works for Shoreline, but he's also an interventionist.

 

Matt (00:50:17):
I haven't talked to him.

 

Rachel (00:50:17):
Working with Dan Caldwell. Yeah. I can connect you two.

 

Matt (00:50:19):
Yeah, please.

 

Rachel (00:50:20):
But I remember because when him and I were talking about it learned that whole, I get a lot of people that call me, a lot of women, Hey, y'all accept my insurance for your sober living, honey. I'm sorry. But Texas doesn't do that. You have to be attached. So a treatment center has to have that PHP with housing, and they still charge you. There's several of them that have that. And it has to be under the care of a doctor.

 

Matt (00:50:39):
And the other problem is PHP is approved for two weeks. That does not solve the housing problem. No. And this was where we are at right now. We're like, even if we got supportive housing, the two weeks does not represent what we actually need for stabilization and for safety for our clients. So even if they get that two weeks approved, what are you going to do for the next 10 weeks? How do you solve this problem?

 

Rachel (00:51:06):
It blows my mind because at the end of the day, if it wasn't for sober living for me, I would've probably relapsed. Okay.

 

Matt (00:51:15):
That is a very,

 

Rachel (00:51:16):
I did not want to go back to my house, and it was my bar, and I had all the things I had to walk in the grocery. I know this sounds crazy, and I don't ever tell anybody to do this, but I had to go sit at a bar at a restaurant and order a water with my steak. I know I did that. I don't tell a lot of people that, but I did that just because I had to do that. We went out to eat a lot. I had to sit at that bar and order a water with friends from sober living and people that had longer term than I did and all that. I had to go grocery shopping, walk down the wine aisle with other people. Those things like that I felt like I needed to do. Was it suggested to me? No. If I probably told the sponsor ahead of the time, she'd probably say, I don't really suggest that, but I just did it anyways.

 

Matt (00:51:59):
I mean,

 

Rachel (00:52:00):
Those things I needed to do For Me.

 

Matt (00:52:02):
So I was just talking about this, right? Where it's a lot of things that you individually have to do doesn't logically track. But for us, it's like, I need to face this and do this and walk through this in order to know that I can. And it's like some people would heavily advise you not to walk down that aisle. Like, I need to do this for myself. Right.

 

Rachel (00:52:24):
I'm going to go home and do it.

 

Matt (00:52:26):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (00:52:26):
My husband traveled. I have to still go to the grocery store by myself with kids. So for me, that's what I'm doing. And you're not going to tell me otherwise. So I did that and just, it worked well for me. So backtrack. So that's when I got out. I got home. My ex-husband, he relapsed two weeks later. He just went to a detox facility. That was awful.

 

Matt (00:52:48):
Was your ex-husband a Navy Seal or

 

Rachel (00:52:51):
Marine?

 

Matt (00:52:51):
A Marine,

 

Rachel (00:52:52):
Yep.

 

Matt (00:52:52):
Okay. Yeah. Already the culture is so substance ridden

 

Rachel (00:53:02):
And they screw you up, to be honest. The Marine Corps, they break you, break you break you, break you down.

 

Matt (00:53:08):
I mean, yeah, they turn you into machine, right? You follow orders

 

Rachel (00:53:11):
And they don't fully ever build you up. Yeah. And then of course, he had all of his own trauma. He actually passed away June two years ago

 

Matt (00:53:24):
From the disease.

 

Rachel (00:53:25):
Alcohol, alcohol and opiates and enablement. That's always a key factor.

 

Matt (00:53:32):
A lot of people

 

Rachel (00:53:32):
Are like, what do you pass away? Alcohol, opiates and enablement. That's what I told my daughter was like, your dad, he didn't have a chance, honey, it, he lost that power of choice. His mother was buying him alcohol.

 

Matt (00:53:46):
So that is something that I tell people often when you take responsibility for somebody, whether it's, so I knew a guy that I was homeless with. I mean, I wasn't homeless with him, but he was homeless. I was homeless, and we saw each other very often for years. And he would get a hundred bucks at Christmas from his mom, and he would talk about it all year. And that a hundred bucks was enough enabling for him to justify everything else that he did all year. But he knew at the end of the year he got a hundred bucks. And so it was like, I'll be all right. It's like,

 

Rachel (00:54:20):
So that helped his

 

Matt (00:54:22):
Crazy, helped his delusion and his justification and all that shit. But I tell people that it's like, so I certify sober coaches and they're CPFS specialists, so they're certified peer and family specialists. If you leave out the family part, then it's almost pointless to do any of this work if you're not helping the family too. And so I tell them, it is just as important to help the family as it is the individual. It's something that we are not going to get paid for, but it is an obligation.

 

Rachel (00:54:58):
I always help the families. I work with a lot with the family and the sober living too,

 

Matt (00:55:03):
Trying to explain to a family that in order to love them in an effective way, you have to let them suffer. And so you get those phone calls where it's pouring outside and it really pours here. But when you let them come in because it's raining, you never know. If you just rob them of the experience that will allow them to come in forever. If you give 'em 20 bucks every time they call, you are negatively reinforcing whatever the behavior is that they're manipulating you out of money for. And so a lot of families that are dealing with this, they love in two ways. They love with their time or their money, and typically they love with their time because they've been manipulated to that point where they're not going to give money anymore or they don't have time. So they give them money because they feel guilty and they don't want their people to suffer. But the reality is, when you take responsibility for somebody, you take responsibility from them, which means now this is on you.

 

Rachel (00:56:09):
Correct?

 

Matt (00:56:10):
And yes, this is an adult. They're making their own decisions. Ultimately it is them. But you are now contributing. And for them to have to introspectively, first of all, sift through that, come to a point where they can accept that and then do something about it, is asking them to move mountains. It's impossible for them to do it by themself. It doesn't instinctually make sense to do that.

 

Rachel (00:56:36):
Correct. And sometimes they're not even aware, the lack of knowledge to ignorance behind it, they have no idea. They're like, oh, wow. They're doing what they were created to do was take care of their children.

 

Matt (00:56:49):
But it's counterintuitive to say, let 'em suffer, basically. But at the same time, so I left my family at 16. I was in and out until I went to prison at 19, and then came back prison at 18 and came back out at 21

 

Rachel (00:57:08):
In California.

 

Matt (00:57:09):
And then got involved with the family again, and very quickly realized that I was heading down my uncle. I've watched him do this where he would do the half in, half out thing, and he steadily and consistently burned all of his bridges with our family to the point where it was just like they were so sick of him. And it got bad. And I was like, I'm heading down this path. I know it. So 21, we split ways, and I didn't talk to the majority of them for 10 years, like 10 plus years. And so I was out there. I never had that option to call them for any kind of help. It just, that wasn't on the table. And so I got to experience a lot of the consequences of my doing. And I tell people all the time, if I had not realized what I was about to do to the relationships in that family, shit could have gotten way crazier than it did. And it isn't like it was crazy. There was a lot of crazy shit that happened. But there would've been a component of I'm manipulating and lying to my family, and when I was ready, they fully accepted me back. That would've been a nightmare trying to get back in. And so I tell people, I tell families, and I tell coaches all the time, if they want to help their child, they need to stop enabling their child. But it's like

 

Rachel (00:58:43):
Easier said than done. Right.

 

Matt (00:58:45):
It is. Is a lot. But

 

Rachel (00:58:47):
I do help try to coach these parents and give them the resources. Yeah.

 

Matt (00:58:53):
Yeah. It's still hard because it,

 

Rachel (00:58:55):
It's still hard.

 

Matt (00:58:56):
They have to, they're

 

Rachel (00:58:56):
Genetically made. They have to accept it, and then they'll be all on board, and then all of a sudden you step away and boom, they're right back doing the same thing. Yeah,

 

Matt (00:59:05):
For sure. Especially because it's like, I'm sure you've seen it, the amount and level of manipulation that the addict or alcoholic is doing, the guilt and the shame that they're pushing onto their family. And it's the nature of the beast. All of us have done it.

 

Rachel (00:59:23):
All of us.

 

Matt (00:59:23):
Maybe not all of us have done it to our families, but we've done it to somebody. And it gets really convoluted. I've seen people believe their own lies many, many times.

 

Rachel (00:59:36):
Oh yeah.

 

Matt (00:59:37):
It's crazy.

 

Rachel (00:59:38):
So delusional. So delusional. Yes. Yeah, I was there. I was one of those. But yeah, the families are more sick, but it's just hard. It's just a hard to maneuver that to make sure everybody's getting the correct help and wanting the correct help. And I literally am just very blunt, and I don't sugarcoat it with these families. You are loving them to death. Literally. You're going to love that your baby to death.

 

(01:00:09):
And I couldn't imagine. I couldn't imagine. My daughter, she's 16, so there's a lot of 16 year olds in treatment. I couldn't imagine. I don't know what I would do. So it's hard to put myself in those shoes. However, what I've seen from experience, this is the only thing I can kind compare to. I mean, the only thing I've dealt with is my husband at the time, and I did enable him trying to rescue him, hopping in through the windows, even when we're separated, trying to find him, making sure he's alive. I stuck with him through six treatments and then I finally ended up leaving. But I was there. I did that, and then I did, and I did some codependency as well, but I was doing that.

 

Matt (01:00:54):
So when it comes to sending people in Al-Anon, right, I've seen a mixed reaction for people. And something that I've noticed is that the people who have negative reactions to what they're being told are the people who can't let go of whatever it's that they're doing for that person. And the other part is they will not be honest with themself about what's going on. And so for the people who have a child or a loved one who's going through this shit, it is painful to have to let them go. But it's so important, so important to let them experience their consequences. That's really all it is. Just let them experience their consequences.

 

Rachel (01:01:40):
Stop playing God.

 

Matt (01:01:41):
Stop playing. God.

 

Rachel (01:01:43):
I mean, I kept throwing him a rope every time. Every time. And guess what? That rope was pulling me and taking away from my sobriety.

 

Matt (01:01:53):
Yeah, it's like quicksand, right?

 

Rachel (01:01:57):
Yeah. I was like, no more. I'm done. But the first time I ever did walk into Al-Anon, I sat there. I was too early in sobriety for it. I went in there, I think it was in my first year, and I sat there through that meeting and I was listening to everybody. I was like, Uhuh. I said, fuck this place. They're all talking about me. I was taking it personal. So I was like, I'm not ready for this at, because they, they're talking that it is, and it was me.

 

Matt (01:02:23):
So what's the difference between codependency meetings and Al-Anon

 

Rachel (01:02:28):
From what I take on it so codependency teaches you to love yourself and not have to have that outside validation. So I feel loved as long as I'm getting compliments and reassurance and things like that. The outside validation, which I think pretty much every addict, alcoholic is codependent.

 

Matt (01:02:52):
It's part of the human condition. We have to be accepted by the people that are surrounding us.

 

Rachel (01:02:56):
So it teaches you that to love yourself. Okay. Now Al Anon it teaches you how to

 

Matt (01:03:05):
Boundaries, right?

 

Rachel (01:03:06):
It teaches you boundaries. Yes. And loving like an addict or a loved one, an addict alcoholic from afar. So I really think those could both go hand in hand. I mean, they both work well. It just depends on what situation you're in. The women, I make them go at the sober living. I strongly suggest make them go to or attending a sober living, not a sober living, attending Codependence anonymous meeting one day a week just to have that. And a lot of girls fell in love with it. They're like, wow. I said, just be open-minded.

 

Matt (01:03:41):
It sounds almost like they're two separate parts of the same kind of goal. So it almost makes sense to send people to both instead of just one.

 

Rachel (01:03:51):
Yeah. So I'll just let them explore that. I'm just go there and see if it interests you. I really push the women that come in that sober living that are, and really looking at the family dynamic, right? Call 'em all, mom for everything, calling dad for everything. He says this. Or they are wanting or trying to get into a relationship early on, or they're in an early relationship. Those things like that. They're having to do that, which we all try to fill that Gods size hole. And what's better than that, than a relationship? The one that tells you, oh, I love you, you're beautiful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that ultimately boils down to no self-worth, lack of confidence. It's the

 

Matt (01:04:46):
Better.

 

Rachel (01:04:46):
So

 

Matt (01:04:47):
Very easily soothed by outside.

 

Rachel (01:04:51):
Yeah.

 

Matt (01:04:53):
So let's talk about 21 and what happened around your mom.

 

Rachel (01:04:58):
Okay, yeah. So she always suffered from hypertension, cardiovascular, well, hypertension. She had high blood pressure. It was untreated for years. She was actually watching, she stayed with my sister when she was taking care of my nephews too at the time.

 

Matt (01:05:19):
So a lot of responsibility.

 

Rachel (01:05:21):
But it was just ever since I believe, I mean, she had seven kids and then all the stress with her and my dad, they were separated. So they weren't together anymore for a long time. And then just the stress of that. And I remember her going, we had some family come down from Louisiana. We were at my sister's apartment and my nephew, who she was she two at the time, like I said, he fell on this dog. And the dog bit, him and her blood pressure went through the roof and she ended up having to go to the hospital. And it was just, she had really, really high blood pressure. Well, if it's untreated, then it causes hypertension. Hypertension, cardiovascular disease, because it's just untreated. And she smoked and drank. So plaque, arteries, all that. Well, they did a whole EKG, all that at Memorial Hermann. And they said everything was fine. So that was November. And then two months later, I got a call that she passed away.

 

Matt (01:06:25):
Suddenly

 

Rachel (01:06:27):
My sister-in-law and my brother came home, and they have, at that time, they had young children, I think one and maybe three. She was babysitting. They went, watched a movie. They came home and looked like she was sleeping on the couch. They said that it was just weird because she was always cleaning up, cooking. She left a pot of beans on the stove and it wasn't picked up. And she looked, she was sleeping, and they got to wake her up and she was gone. Try to resuscitate her. Didn't work that.

 

Matt (01:06:55):
So did the doctors say that it was preventable?

 

Rachel (01:06:59):
Oh yeah.

 

Matt (01:07:00):
Okay.

 

Rachel (01:07:01):
Yep.

 

Matt (01:07:03):
And what would've prevented it?

 

Rachel (01:07:04):
Probably, I'm sure, I mean, there's probably many factors, but 1000% she had untreated high blood pressure. So not be on medication for that. And okay. I am not a big pharma kind of gal. But at that time, this was what, 20 years ago, right? 2000? No, I'm sorry.

 

Matt (01:07:27):
More than that. Right. If you were 20.

 

Rachel (01:07:30):
Yeah, I'm 41. Don't get me a few extra years, please. Thank you. Yeah. So at that time though, it was just, she didn't take the medication. She couldn't afford it. No insurance. My dad never bought it for her, but her blood pressure was high. I mean, she had seven kids. Her first born passed away from leukemia, so I'm sure that triggered it. There's a trauma and smoking and drinking it's awful for high blood pressure

 

Matt (01:07:58):
Plus, what was her upbringing? What was that environment like? That probably added to it. Well, you said there's a history.

 

Rachel (01:08:09):
It's Louisiana.

 

Matt (01:08:10):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (01:08:10):
It's the Louisiana thing. And I think really, I mean, she had a wonderful upbringing. From what I saw. It was mainly, I think ever since her and my dad got together and them losing their firstborn.

 

Matt (01:08:22):
Yeah, that'll cause major problems,

 

Rachel (01:08:24):
For sure. Yeah. So that was not good. That was not good. But I really, thinking back, I really feel like my depression for sure came before my drinking. And anxiety. Anxiety and depression came before my drinking.

 

Matt (01:08:41):
So how old were you when you were sexually abused?

 

Rachel (01:08:45):
I started at 13.

 

Matt (01:08:47):
Okay. So I tell people all the time that I was exhibiting addict behavior as a child, manipulation and just random shit that I can now look back and be like, yeah, there was an issue way before the drugs, way before any of the, and I've worked extensively with therapists, with one therapist specifically. Same here. And that helps so much.

 

Rachel (01:09:14):
So much.

 

Matt (01:09:15):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:09:16):
I have the same therapist that I've had when I was drinking. Same one.

 

Matt (01:09:21):
Wow. Yeah,

 

Rachel (01:09:23):
I kept her because I had to go in there and I owe her ass an amends. Oh

 

Matt (01:09:27):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:09:28):
And I kept her after that. Yes. Because she knows my whole history. Why not? Repeating that shit over and over again is annoying.

 

Matt (01:09:35):
Very.

 

Rachel (01:09:36):
It's like speed dating. I can't do that shit. No, thank you.

 

Matt (01:09:40):
The therapist client relationship is so unique. This is the one person that I've ever been able to unload everything onto

 

Rachel (01:09:50):
Everything,

 

Matt (01:09:51):
Knowing everything will be okay. Right. And then as men today, it's the epidemic of the silent suffering. Have you heard of that?

 

Rachel (01:10:04):
Yes. Yes and no. But I know what you're talking about. Yes. But I don't know if you're talking about the book.

 

Matt (01:10:10):
No,

 

Rachel (01:10:11):
You're talking about in general. Just the movement basically. Yes, I know all about

 

Matt (01:10:14):
And we're already, men today are so unhealthy from a masculine standpoint. It's been devalued and degraded and just broken down to such a degree that men can't express themselves in a healthy way. They can, but they don't know how to.

 

Rachel (01:10:38):
No, they don't know how to.

 

Matt (01:10:39):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (01:10:40):
They don't know how to.

 

Matt (01:10:41):
And so I'm a huge advocate for men to go to therapy. We should all probably go to therapy, but men go to therapy, go.

 

Rachel (01:10:50):
Everybody should go to therapy. I was just having this conversation with one of the little girls at my house. She doesn't think she needs it.

 

Matt (01:10:55):
Yeah. I think everybody should.

 

Rachel (01:10:56):
Everybody needs it. Everybody has, I don't care who you are, everybody has something that bothers them, something they struggle with

 

Matt (01:11:05):
Something. And this isn't an addict alcoholic thing. This is everybody.

 

Rachel (01:11:09):
Right. That's an ego thing though, not to want to go to therapy. That's partially ego for men, in my opinion.

 

Matt (01:11:15):
Really?

 

Rachel (01:11:17):
I think it's partially ego. It's either it has to be so ego, I'm good. I can handle, I think partially ego. And maybe they're just told not to talk about their feelings. But doesn't that boil down ego?

 

Matt (01:11:32):
I think, and vulnerability, somewhat agree. But really what I think it is, is lack of ability to do it. Right. I think that if we were raised in a more healthy way that said, I don't know what this would look like. I don't because it wasn't my experience. But there should be a world where we are able to say, I'm going to therapy. And that's okay, but that's not typical.

 

Rachel (01:11:58):
So ego is part. Okay. Depending. Right. The masculinity taking away, I think. But you are right. I think that they're also conditioned that way. Why would I need to go to therapy? But it's not them being egotistical. It's just like I'm good with my feelings and I can handle this on my own, and I should be able to handle this on my own. Because they were taught that since they were young. I mean, they've been taught, men have been taught to be tough through all.

 

Matt (01:12:26):
Yeah, no, definitely. And it's like it is hard. I don't know what the answer is. It's hard. That's

 

Rachel (01:12:30):
What I'm saying. There's so many different, that's why I was like, I'm talking it through, maybe it's ego, but maybe it's this too. I mean, there's probably so many components at the end of the day. But

 

Matt (01:12:39):
Because, okay, we do not want, so a man who cannot control his emotions will be controlled by his emotions. That is a fact.

 

Rachel (01:12:50):
1000%. I agree.

 

Matt (01:12:53):
But at the same time, we're never taught how to control our emotions. We are just told to control our emotions.

 

Rachel (01:13:01):
Correct. And I learned this now also too, I guess I have a little boy who's two, and I'm a present sober mom. And I was present with my daughter to a sense until she was like, it was from three to six is where it really got bad. But you can tell he's a little boy, you testosterone constantly busy going tantrum all the things that my daughter was not, and I allowed him to be a boy, play in the dirt. Just be wild, jump on stuff, spill stuff, whatever. I'm not a helicoptery parent. I just don't do that. I just allow him to be wild and learn through play. But he's dysregulated. He doesn't know how to emotionally regulate. And I can see that. And it's so different how I approach it and my husband does with him. It's just so different.

 

Matt (01:13:54):
Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing too. It's so historically in, I don't know if this is still like this, but in definitely hundreds of years ago in the Jewish community, women would raise boys and then they would pass, I think it was like 12 or eight or whatever, they would hit it a certain age, and then the husband would take over raising the boy into a man. And then this is another thing that a lot of people don't talk about is there is no ritualistic, symbolic turning of coming of age thing that we do anymore for men. There historically has always been that thing, that mountain that you go climb when you turn into a man or you go out in the wilderness for a month. There are societies where when you turn this age, you go survive on your own for however long. And then when you come back, you're a man. We don't do that anymore. It's just this continuum of you're going to go to school, you're going to be put in these situations, we're going to tell you what to do, and then you're going to go to college. But that is not a coming of age thing. That's part of the expected continuum of whatever it is that we're doing now. But it isn't a man thing. It isn't a woman thing. This is just something that we do. And so still there is no, after I accomplish this, I will be a man. Now, do you know anything about the Mormon church?

 

Rachel (01:15:26):
I know I have, I've had a couple girls in my sober living. One of 'em was a Jehovah's Witness and one of 'em was Mormon.

 

Matt (01:15:34):
Very similar in beliefs. At least in a lot of doctrines, the same.

 

Rachel (01:15:38):
My husband knows a lot about religion just because he was in prison and he's rid off.

 

Matt (01:15:43):
So I was raised Mormon. And one of the things that they do is when a boy turns 19, he goes on a mission for two years. And in that culture, that is your coming of age thing. And I can see how that benefits these people greatly. They have this thing that they work towards. You have to be worthy to go on it. And then you go, and then you come back and people respect you as a man. And I see the positive results of you have this thing that you do, we all go do it. And then when you come back, we look at you as a man. We don't have that in our society though. And so this contributes as well to when are you a man? When is a boy a man? People say 18 because you can vote. It's an arbitrary number though. There is no actual reason why. If there was a reason why we would arbitrarily come up with these numbers, it should be like 25. That would make more sense. Fully developed.

 

Rachel (01:16:42):
And then a woman, their frontal cortex, what is it?

 

Matt (01:16:44):
Yeah, 25, 24. 25 and 24. Yeah. It's somewhere around there where if we're going to say, well, you're an adult now, that would make the most sense. But instead it's 18, which makes no actual biological sense. It makes No, you can't point to it and be like, well, the reason why is this other than you're allowed to leave your house now. You're no longer your parents' ward. It still doesn't make sense to me though. But I say all this to say, we don't know when you become a man, there is no definitive. Okay, well now you're a man. You got to go do this. It's kind of like starts in high school where you get held to certain standards where people start putting these things on you where you're like, okay, well, you're going to be a man soon, so you should be able to do this. You should go get a job.

 

Rachel (01:17:32):
I think men are held to really, there's a lot of standards for men that are not really, you know what I mean?

 

Matt (01:17:40):
A lot of it is unrealistic. I think it would be more realistic to hold people to these arbitrary standards. If you had this thing where you have a coming of age thing where you're like, now you are a man and we expect this of you, but it's not like that. You slowly evolve. The calendars fall off. And you never have this definitive. In Hispanic cultures, they got the quinceaneras for the females. And it's like a very definitive, you're now a woman.

 

Rachel (01:18:15):
16. That's crazy to me though.

 

Matt (01:18:16):
It's 15.

 

Rachel (01:18:17):
Oh, 15. That's right.

 

Matt (01:18:18):
But there is still that coming of age ritual for them. And one of the things that happened to me, specifically, I'll talk from that experience, is when I was 16, I got kicked out of my parents' house. And I think a lot of the reason, the thought behind it, I've never actually talked to 'em about it, but what makes sense to me is that they were trying to scare me into making the right decisions. But I ran with it and I just did my own thing. I ended up in prison a couple of years later. But

 

Rachel (01:18:51):
Why did they kick you out though?

 

Matt (01:18:53):
I'm the oldest of 10 kids, and I was doing heroin in their house.

 

Rachel (01:18:57):
See, I moved. Okay, well, there you go.

 

Matt (01:18:58):
Yeah. It's a pretty,

 

Rachel (01:19:00):
There's your sign.

 

Matt (01:19:01):
Pretty good reason, right?

 

Rachel (01:19:02):
Yeah. He's like, oh, well, out of these 10, no, that one's got to go there, buddy.

 

Matt (01:19:06):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sure if it was the 11-year-old that was doing heroin in their house, it would've been different. That is still like a child. But I was 16. Right? In their mind, they're like, okay, you can make these adult decisions. You're old enough, you can go. But it's like I wasn't a man. I was a fucking child.

 

Rachel (01:19:26):
No, that's still a child.

 

Matt (01:19:28):
I was a child.

 

Rachel (01:19:29):
I moved out at 18.

 

Matt (01:19:33):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:19:33):
Was just gone. Peace out.

 

Matt (01:19:36):
And that is a common thing, right? But we're still kids.

 

Rachel (01:19:39):
Oh, I moved because, so I can go party

 

Matt (01:19:41):
For sure.

 

Rachel (01:19:42):
It was awful.

 

Matt (01:19:43):
For sure. So my

 

Rachel (01:19:44):
Parents and did all the things

 

Matt (01:19:45):
When they had me. They were 19 and 21, so they were still kids. Right. It's crazy the situation that kids are being raised up in.

 

Rachel (01:19:53):
Are your parents still alive? Yeah.

 

Matt (01:19:56):
So I actually have a very confusing family situation. So my father, the guy that raised me is not my biological father, but he's my biological father's best friend. And they've stayed best friends my entire life, their entire life to the point where my biological father was adopted by my grandfather. And so his last name is my last name.

 

Rachel (01:20:22):
Okay.

 

Matt (01:20:24):
But when I was three, my biological parents had the twins and separated.

 

Rachel (01:20:31):
I have twin little sisters

 

Matt (01:20:32):
Really

 

Rachel (01:20:32):
The last two are twins.

 

Matt (01:20:34):
I would love to have twins.

 

Rachel (01:20:36):
I thought I was going to have twins. It goes up when you're in your early thirties.

 

Matt (01:20:39):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:20:40):
I mean later thirties, forties. I was like, oh God, watch my ass have twins.

 

Matt (01:20:43):
Yeah. Just imagine that pregnancy is probably crazy. Did you have any high risk shit going on?

 

Rachel (01:20:48):
Well, thank God they always put you as high risk for 35 and over. But I lifted weights my entire, I worked out my entire pregnancy all the way up until I delivered. Literally, still have the same trainer today, but

 

Matt (01:20:58):
That is impressive.

 

Rachel (01:21:00):
But it was, thank God I did all that. I'm a big believer in exercise, but my OB, GYN that I had, she was awesome. She said, did the high risk lady call you? I said, no. And then she never talked about it again. She never called me geriatric pregnant. Nothing. Nothing.

 

Matt (01:21:19):
Right. Isn't 35 in about

 

Rachel (01:21:21):
Yeah. And I was 39.

 

Matt (01:21:23):
That is crazy.

 

Rachel (01:21:24):
So she never, nothing and everything was perfect on paper.

 

Matt (01:21:27):
That's awesome.

 

Rachel (01:21:28):
Perfect.

 

Matt (01:21:29):
So when I was three, my dad came into the, well, he was always there. Right. My earliest memories are like my two dads playing basketball and I was with them. Sorry. You're good. I have a family, a very confusing family situation.

 

Rachel (01:21:48):
Right. So your dad is your grand, you said your grandfather.

 

Matt (01:21:54):
See, so my biological father was adopted by my dad's dad.

 

Rachel (01:22:00):
That's kind of like how my mom's was.

 

Matt (01:22:01):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:22:03):
Her cousin was her mother. It sounds like some fucking back woods.

 

Matt (01:22:09):
Louisiana, some Louisiana shit.

 

Rachel (01:22:11):
But it's not. It's so not, but literally. Okay. So my mother's biological mom and dad passed away. So their cousin, it's just not like incest. This person backwood small, here you go. None of that.

 

Matt (01:22:26):
Okay. Yeah. It is similar to that. But

 

Rachel (01:22:28):
They adopted so genetically that's just her cousin, but that was her mother. That's all she knows, knew since she was two,

 

Matt (01:22:35):
Very similar to that. As a matter of fact, my dads live next to each other still. They're neighbors.

 

Rachel (01:22:43):
Okay.

 

Matt (01:22:43):
That's cool. They're literally best friends. And so my biological father all growing up, he was Uncle Mark

 

Rachel (01:22:52):
To you?

 

Matt (01:22:52):
To all of my siblings.

 

Rachel (01:22:55):
So when you are around them both, who do you feel like you should? Your dad, your grandfather?

 

Matt (01:22:59):
No, no, no. Not my grandfather. So this is how it goes. Two best friends.

 

Rachel (01:23:05):
Two best friends.

 

Matt (01:23:08):
My biological father and my dad. So I'll say biological father and dad. Okay. When my biological father and mom divorced, they split up. My dad got with my mom.

 

Rachel (01:23:21):
Got it. Okay. It registered now. So the 10 of y'all not say mom and dad.

 

Matt (01:23:28):
The three oldest are full-blooded, and then the last rest of 'em are from the other marriage.

 

Rachel (01:23:34):
Okay.

 

Matt (01:23:34):
But it was never, my dad is never treated as different. Your dad. Your dad. Yeah, for sure.

 

Rachel (01:23:39):
That's like my daughter,

 

Matt (01:23:40):
For sure.

 

Rachel (01:23:41):
My husband now is, I mean, he met her when she was just turned 10. But I mean, her biological dad wasn't a part of her life really. He was always drunk. But this is who she knows as dad.

 

Matt (01:23:55):
My dad, my dad has always been my biggest advocate, not my biological father. My dad, the guy that raised me. And I've always had a really cool relationship with him where I got to spend a lot of time with him that his own kids, as far as I know, I was allowed to not go to school and go with him to court and shit like that. And I don't think they ever did that with the other kids. And when I was a baby, he would bring me everywhere with him.

 

Rachel (01:24:28):
That's awesome.

 

Matt (01:24:30):
And then just as I grew up, he was always,

 

Rachel (01:24:33):
And that's your dad?

 

Matt (01:24:34):
That is my dad. Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:24:35):
Yeah.

 

Matt (01:24:35):
Well, and then it was like Uncle Mark is my biological, and I have memories of my biological parents together. But when my,

 

Rachel (01:24:44):
Even after all the damn drugs.

 

Matt (01:24:45):
Yeah. Yeah. I have Isn't have a really, really good memory.

 

Rachel (01:24:49):
Long-term or short-term?

 

Matt (01:24:50):
Both.

 

Rachel (01:24:50):
Both.

 

Matt (01:24:51):
And my first memory, I was months old, but I watched, my aunt was holding me and she had her hand on the top of a car and somebody slammed the door on it. And I remember this vividly.

 

Rachel (01:25:05):
That's so crazy.

 

Matt (01:25:06):
I was months old. And so I asked my parents,

 

Rachel (01:25:08):
Hey, that's awesome.

 

Matt (01:25:09):
Do you remember this? They were like, my dad was vaguely, and my mom's like, there's no way you can remember that. You were like a baby baby. No, I vivid. I can remember the building. I remember all of it.

 

Rachel (01:25:20):
It's all implanted. That is

 

Matt (01:25:22):
But it's like trauma related memories.

 

Rachel (01:25:25):
Correct.

 

Matt (01:25:26):
So there's a very good reason why I remember

 

Rachel (01:25:28):
What was your drug of choice?

 

Matt (01:25:30):
Heroin.

 

Rachel (01:25:30):
Everything. Heroin. Iv.

 

Matt (01:25:32):
Yeah. So I used everything. The last drug test that I failed when they tested me when I went to jail, there was heroin. Meth, PCP, cocaine, Xanax, weed, and I said PCP. Right. Yeah. So that was a

 

Rachel (01:25:55):
No fentanyl.

 

Matt (01:25:57):
So I lived in San Diego.

 

Rachel (01:25:59):
You can get more pure stuff then.

 

Matt (01:26:01):
Yeah. Yeah. This in 2019 was when the fentanyl thing became a thing,

 

Rachel (01:26:09):
Right?

 

Matt (01:26:09):
Well, the heroin trade is still a massive thing down there. And so there was people that sold fentanyl and people that sold heroin, but they started the last year of my using. People were dropping flies all over the place because they started to mix it. But we were going to Mexico.

 

Rachel (01:26:34):
They became friends and started mixing it.

 

Matt (01:26:38):
Well, so I would go to Mexico and we would bring stuff across, and so we had a very good idea of what was going on with our drugs. But everybody else, they started cutting it with fentanyl and stretching it with fentanyl and people were dying. Left and right, left. And it was crazy and

 

Rachel (01:27:01):
So sad.

 

Matt (01:27:02):
I mean, it is sad. But you know what? Today, I tell people this all the time. We live in a more dangerous time today than we've ever had. The introduction of fentanyl to the drug supply says that if you relapse on, how many times have you heard the story or it's like on the news that somebody smoked weed and it was cross-contaminated with fentanyl and they od and die smoking weed.

 

Rachel (01:27:24):
Correct. And that's what I tell my daughter with everything too. I mean, she's 16, she's a junior in high school, and I don't restrict her from going, I allow her to go to, we allow her, not just me and my husband and I allow her to go to parties. We're just not those parents that are going to sit there, but we do. She knows all the knowledge, mom and dad and daddy that raised you. Right. But biologically, genetically, we're both addicts. Your whole family, you have a history of addicts, alcoholics.

 

Matt (01:27:53):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:27:55):
So you're predisposed.

 

Matt (01:27:56):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:27:57):
Okay. Now the social, I said, here's the thing. She hasn't taken it. We're very open and honest. She's just so, and I don't compare it. I don't ever compare her and I together like each other with her, but I just always told my husband, I'm like, God, she's just so different than I was. She's secure. Her beliefs are her beliefs. She doesn't have to have a boyfriend. She doesn't care what people think about her. I cared about what everybody thought about me. Everything. She's just not that way. She's a really, really good kid. But I just tell her, if she goes to a party, just, I don't care if it's a drink, a coke, a water bottle, you get it yourself. I don't care. Regardless. I don't care what it is. You go get it yourself. And I said, at the end of the day, if you end up drinking, that's your decision. This is the knowledge. Right? Okay. However, you better call me. I don't want you to get in the car with anybody, but you're not going to be in trouble at the end of the day. Call me. I'll figure it out.

 

Matt (01:28:54):
This is the difference between good parenting and bad parenting. We live in a time where it's systematic bad parenting is the norm, and it isn't like that. You are enabling her to make bad decisions. You're educating her, right?

 

Rachel (01:29:14):
I do.

 

Matt (01:29:14):
And that is our plan.

 

Rachel (01:29:16):
But she has to make some decisions also because I've seen it backfire to where you're so strict and they're going to go do all those things.

 

Matt (01:29:22):
That's what happened to me.

 

Rachel (01:29:23):
You're going to go do everything your parents are telling you not to, or there is a fine line. And I'm not saying no, am I a perfect parent? No. I try to figure it out, but I try to balance it and think things through. For instance, I've seen parents where they're not strict at all or their kids, they allow the drink. I would never allow the kids. I'm not going to promote drinking at my house. They're not allowed to bring here. If you're going to have people over, that's fine. No alcohol here. I'm sorry. I'm not going to do that.

 

(01:29:52):
That's promoting it. That's enabling it. I'm not going to be a part of that. They can go somewhere else to do that. Okay. That's not who I am. But I've seen it that way where we didn't have a lot of supervision. We ended up just living with my dad, my mom, to move away this before she passed away during high school, my dad was always at his girlfriend, so we're always sneaking out. We had zero parental supervision, so we were just doing whatever we wanted to do. You know what I'm saying? So she understands there's good and bad consequences to everything, every decision, but she's aware of the knowledge, the facts. She knows what I do every day for a living. She hears me on the phone with these alcoholics and addicts. I was very transparent with her dad. Her dad was very sick, and I told her that the day that he calls you and doesn't blame me for everything, I had to teach her how to use a voice. And that's what my therapist taught me. She goes, you need to teach how to use a voice. I said, baby. She goes, I don't want to talk to him. Every single time I talk to him, he's talking bad about you and blaming you for not seeing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, at the end of the day, answer the phone and tell him how you feel.

 

(01:30:59):
And she goes, she answered the phone. I think this is the last time she talked to him. She goes, why is that every single time I talked to you, you always talk bad about my mom, but my mom never talks bad about you. And I said, okay. I was like, because I'm not going to, I just tell her that her dad was really, really sick, and that the day that he calls you and owns his part, then he's in recovery. And unfortunately he didn't make it there, but now she has two sober parents, which is really good.

 

Matt (01:31:26):
And these are the benefits of having sober parents, very self-aware. Recovery is so much more than just not using

 

Rachel (01:31:36):
Way more.

 

Matt (01:31:37):
And the benefits of being in recovery go way beyond just being able to live a productive life. You're talking about very healthy things. But I think that this was a norm in our nation's history, healthy parenting conversations. But it just is not the situation we're living in anymore.

 

Rachel (01:31:58):
Yes. I've had in the, let's see, I've done sober. Okay, so really quick, I'm going to tell you how I started working in this field. It's kind of a cool story. So I get out, husband's drinking at the time, supported him through several treatments. Relapse, relapse, relapse, and good thing. I had a, at that time, the AA group I had at that time was amazing where I got sober, amazing group of people. They showed up to everything, house caught on fire. I had a lot of things happen in my sobriety, and they were always there. Little small old timey group in Tomball, Texas is just very small.

 

Matt (01:32:37):
Oh, that's right. You and Kim, right?

 

Rachel (01:32:39):
Me, Kim and Andrea,

 

Matt (01:32:41):
And

 

Rachel (01:32:41):
Yeah,

 

Matt (01:32:42):
That's right.

 

Rachel (01:32:43):
So it was a really good group.

 

Matt (01:32:46):
Going to have all three of you on at the same time.

 

Rachel (01:32:49):
And then Jennifer, I met her there as well. Yeah, I met her in 2018. And then Andrea, Andy, she goes, I know it was Andrea, but she goes, Andy, but she was the first person I met there in 2015 when I got sober. So I started working. There was a job that came available in Magnolia. It was a brand new woman, sober living that was opening up. And a friend of mine, she goes, girl, she goes, this is open. I said, I kept try to get my feelers out. You know what I mean? I was heavily involved in aa. That's what kept me sober, sane. And that's where my comfort zone was, because if I didn't have that at that time, I would've drank. I mean, my husband's drinking all the time. So thank God I had that support system then. And I went over, I was speaking with a friend of mine, and she was like, yeah, they're going to be hiring her house manager. Their house manager relapsed. I was like, okay. It was brand new. I think it was open for two months.

 

Matt (01:33:54):
Mag City.

 

Rachel (01:33:55):
This was called WestBridge Recovery, but this was WestBridge before. It's a treatment center now. It got bought out, but this was in 2016, and it was a sober living for women and brand new. And they're like, just call this guy. So I ended up calling him, and he's like, you got to have a year of sobriety. I was like, don't even get me started on that kind of shit.

 

Matt (01:34:15):
I know.

 

Rachel (01:34:16):
So you have After year of sobriety, I was like, okay. I was like, I had nine months. I was like, well, you just interview me. He's like, you got to have a year. I'm not cutting back on that. I said, just, I talked him into it, I guess I used my little manipul manipulative ass. I talked him into it. So I went over there and interviewed with him, and he hired me. And that's why I wanted in front of him. I knew he would hire me because, not to be cocky, but I knew what I had to offer. I knew where my recovery was at nine months sober. I knew what I had and I was on fire. And that's where I learned about sober. I took what I knew from there. I built that program there, and then that one just went to hell because of ownership. And then I took that knowledge and Kim and I kind of opened up that next one in 2018. So it went off from there.

 

Matt (01:35:05):
Sober living is such a tough business. So when I,

 

Rachel (01:35:07):
It's so tough, especially with women.

 

Matt (01:35:09):
Oh, yeah. I, and the business model is,

 

Rachel (01:35:13):
There's so many different ways to do it.

 

Matt (01:35:15):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:35:15):
You know what I mean?

 

Matt (01:35:16):
Yeah, I do. When this was being talked about, originally it was sober living, and then we did a bunch of research into the industry.

 

Rachel (01:35:24):
What Harmony Grove was.

 

Matt (01:35:25):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:35:26):
Okay. Yeah.

 

Matt (01:35:27):
That's what the idea was to start with sober living

 

Rachel (01:35:31):
And build up. Did you move here for this?

 

Matt (01:35:32):
No.

 

Rachel (01:35:33):
You were already here?

 

Matt (01:35:34):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:35:35):
Okay.

 

Matt (01:35:35):
Yeah. And so this is what happened. I have a friend, he got sober. I met him. He was a big influence on my early sobriety. And then we had this plan to start Samurai Sober Living

 

Rachel (01:35:56):
Samurai.

 

Matt (01:35:57):
And there was this whole plan around it. We were going to make it a 5 0 1 C3. It was going to be a church. And we were going to get involved with psychedelic studies and really try to, because in San Diego, that's a big thing.

 

Rachel (01:36:10):
Is it a big thing? Do they use it for the military? Is that what they're using for in PTSD

 

Matt (01:36:14):
Maps? Do you know what maps is?

 

Rachel (01:36:16):
Yeah.

 

Matt (01:36:16):
So Maps is in San Diego,

 

Rachel (01:36:18):
Is it?

 

Matt (01:36:19):
Yeah. They did a bunch of those studies at USD. And so it's just always been something that is talked about. And so me and him had a lot of really crazy ideas around if we did this, we could help people in this cutting edge thing. So this was the idea. And then I moved here. He got caught with an ATM machine in his garage, so he's back in prison. Oh,

 

Rachel (01:36:46):
Damn. He stole one. He stole

 

Matt (01:36:50):
Just a crazy,

 

Rachel (01:36:51):
I think you told me about this.

 

Matt (01:36:52):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:36:53):
Wild.

 

Matt (01:36:54):
Yeah. So he's in prison and I'm like, I relapsed.

 

Rachel (01:37:00):
Do you put money on his books?

 

Matt (01:37:01):
Yeah. Good. Send him packages and stuff.

 

Rachel (01:37:03):
Good.

 

Matt (01:37:03):
Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:37:04):
Good.

 

Matt (01:37:04):
He calls me twice a week. Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:37:09):
Is he locked up for life?

 

Matt (01:37:10):
No, he gets out in 20 months or something like that.

 

Rachel (01:37:13):
I think about to say 20 years. I was like, damn.

 

Matt (01:37:15):
No, no. And he got lucky. He recognizes all of this too. And it's like, anyway, so I was like, okay, I'm just going to do this. And we started doing research into the market and then researching what it actually looks like. And my brother was like, this is a fucking terrible idea. You have no clue how to get clients. And I was like, yeah, that's the short of it is if we do this, we have no clue what we're doing. And he was like, okay, what is the next option after this? And I said, well, opening your treatment center. And so one thing led to another, and now we're here.

 

Rachel (01:37:56):
Always wanted to open up a treatment center always. I remember when I tried to AMA, I was like, fuck this place. I was like, I can run this place better than literally three days sober. I can run this place and then just tell 'em everything that's wrong and all that. It was, no, they did a good job. I mean, I'm still sober today, but

 

Matt (01:38:14):
I mean, my experience is what built this place. I think everybody that goes to treatment has that as well, where they're like, I could do this better. So when the opportunity came, I was like, well, okay, maybe all of those inefficiencies or Here's the thing, I went to treatment seven times. I've done years. I did a three year program, a nine month program, a seven month program, and then a bunch of one month and six week programs. Done a lot of treatment. And I've done a wide variety of treatment. I've done faith-based programs, synanon based programs, work therapy programs. I've done all the different types of treatment. But it took me going to all of these different models and lengths of time where it's like I needed all of that information from every single one of 'em. Each of them taught me something different. And it's like it does take work and it's more investment and it costs more money, but you can package all of that information in one continuum of care. So I've always been like, it's just inefficient the way that a lot of things are ran.

 

Rachel (01:39:26):
I agree. And I don't agree that it's one, for instance, I had a client the other day that called me, well, for instance, let me just say this. I've had, from my experience working, doing sober living since 2016 and building programs. And Kim and I had to figure it out to where it was a lot of trial and error. I mean, that's just how you do it. If you learn for something. The reason why this rule is in this rule book, because it was broken or something, there was a situation around it. Things worked, things didn't work. And you just create a program that way. Lots of questions, lots of things that awry, that arose in different situations, and you had to figure out a procedure and a process behind it. And what didn't work for me, I know a lot of sober livings feel like if they relapse, then they're done. They're kicked out. And a lot of them do that. I don't, and not that I broadcast that to when they walk in, they say, well, what happens if I relapse? I have a relapse plan that they fill out when they come in, who to call or who to call? Have that on there, or do you trust us to take it to have a treatment plan for you? Depending on what that looks like, what the relapse looks like, then I kind of address it from there.

 

(01:40:44):
So some will be asked to leave, some won't. But I've allowed women back many times just because of, and people think, really, you've never relapsed. You've only done treatment like a one and done. I was like, but I'm not everybody and everybody's not me. Everybody's looks different. Do I believe, and this is what I don't believe how people do say relapse is a part of recovery. I do not agree with that statement

 

Matt (01:41:09):
That it is not, say it again,

 

Rachel (01:41:12):
I don't agree with the statement says relapse is a part of recovery.

 

Matt (01:41:15):
Right. Because it

 

Rachel (01:41:17):
You can't tell people

 

Matt (01:41:18):
Obviously is not a part of recovery.

 

Rachel (01:41:19):
I don't think that we should normalize that though.

 

Matt (01:41:22):
Okay.

 

Rachel (01:41:22):
Relapse doesn't have to be a part of your recovery.

 

Matt (01:41:26):
I've heard that more often.

 

Rachel (01:41:27):
But if it is, we can work with that. That means there's something there. I've worked with a young lady, she's relapsed five times, and I still allow her in my sober living because there's something missing and this is the best she's ever done. And I don't give up on people like that. I'm not going to, there's something there. So let's figure it off. That's not working. I'm a big solution like solution, solution, solution. If something's not working, let's figure out what will work

 

Matt (01:41:55):
What is her DOC

 

Rachel (01:41:57):
Alcohol?

 

Matt (01:42:01):
When I hear stories like this, the first thing I think of is Dr. Shah, right? Where his whole relapse prediction and prevention model,

 

Rachel (01:42:10):
It works. I think

 

Matt (01:42:12):
It does, but it's

 

Rachel (01:42:13):
Like, and that's where I wanted her to see him. So that's the next, she's an IOP right now, but that's the next step is for her to see him.

 

Matt (01:42:20):
Well, he's our medical director.

 

Rachel (01:42:22):
He just came right on board

 

Matt (01:42:24):
And we, the curriculum we're developing has his whole model infused.

 

Rachel (01:42:29):
He does that. He thinks it's small seizures that go off in the brain and he treats them with a mood stabilizer.

 

Matt (01:42:34):
And the thing is, at the core of it is this, if you are constantly relapsing and reentering recovery, the biological that they point to is you have a cycling mood disorder that is undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. So if we can diagnose it, we track it, we make sure that it's appropriate, we intervene on it, we re-prescribe based on this new,

 

Rachel (01:42:59):
And that's what I think she needs too. I mean, she has a really good doctor, very well known doctor. That's part of a lot of treatment centers. That's who her doctor is.

 

Matt (01:43:05):
Bo.

 

Rachel (01:43:08):
But when I heard Dr. Shah made me think. I've heard him a few times. So for instance, maybe that's why I didn't relapse. I was put on a mood stabilizer.

 

Matt (01:43:16):
I could, but

 

Rachel (01:43:20):
There's probably many factors. I could sit here and say, oh, probably this. Honestly, I was willing, I was desperate. I was willing to do what anybody told me to do. I didn't care. And I did it all right. You think I wanted to write that damn St. Francis prayer every single day? No, but I did it. I got involved. And I think also to a big factor in my sobriety was working in sober living at nine months sober because I had a purpose. I was a stay at home mom drinking all the time. I had a purpose. You need purpose. So that little girl that's at my house, she has purpose now. She's a senior resident taking on responsibilities and her little face lights up.

 

Matt (01:43:59):
Yeah, I mean there is that. So Ted was here yesterday. We were talking about this exactly right. The people's philosophy around discharge. And the reality is what is the likelihood of them doing?

 

Rachel (01:44:14):
Well, I haven't seen Ted in forever. How's he doing?

 

Matt (01:44:17):
I see him all the time. We talk on the phone all the time. He's doing good. He's getting married.

 

Rachel (01:44:21):
Really? I knew him when he was his ex-wife or whatever. I'm so happy for him.

 

Matt (01:44:30):
Yeah, he's doing really good. I really enjoy his company. I like him. But we were talking about people's philosophies around discharging, and he said, you know what? Discharging them could be the worst thing that could happen to him depending on the situation, depending on the severity. But he's like, if you need stabilization will put you in detox. And if you want to come back and you are willing to talk about it and get honest about it and progress at relapses, they do not have to be a part of your story. And it isn't exclusively part of recovery. But if it is and you are willing to grow from it, it could be one of my last relapse was the most pivotal thing in my life that has ever happened.

 

Rachel (01:45:13):
Correct? Correct. And I do believe it's part of some people's journeys. And I do believe sometimes it needs to happen for, there's a reason why it's happening. And I see that, right. But I don't ever, I never sit there and tell, I don't ever feel like I'm superior. I've never relapsed. I don't think just I have 10 years. I always tell the girls in the house, you know what? I'm not above you. I walk along beside each of you, the end, every situation. It's very individualized care. And I mean every, it's very individualized. Not one for, we had a girl come move in. She has a little three-year-old autistic son that she has to go. She's not on a buddy system. She's not, she has to take care of her son. And that is, she has no family support. So I don't hold, these rules don't apply to everybody. I'm so sorry. That just is what it is.

 

Matt (01:46:02):
So the industry at large has buzzwords that they use. And individualized care is one of the ones that I have a huge problem with because the industry as a whole kind of paints with broad brushes. And when they say individualized care, it kind of communicates something, but it doesn't mean what they're saying. A lot of it is not tailored to the individual. There's a lot of wide range prescription, and then they'll do certain things for the individual. But it's like if my whole thing about it is specifically regarding individualized care, if you're going to say individualized care, how are you going to try to force everybody to do the same thing then?

 

Rachel (01:46:44):
That's very true.

 

Matt (01:46:45):
It doesn't make sense to tell people individualized care and then wide range prescribed the same thing to everybody. That's not what individualized care is. Yeah,

 

Rachel (01:47:01):
It is very, I don't know. So we were talking about how you created Harmony Grove and all that, and you want all inclusive, but I think to kind of backtrack there was, regarding this individual, I had many people say, well, she needs a 90 day program. She needs a No, she doesn't. She's done all of those. She's done the bougie of the bougie of the bougie. She's done the expenses. She's done all of that. Treatment doesn't fix that. I said, what about when she gets out? It has nothing. She's going to go in a bubble that defeats the entire purpose.

 

Matt (01:47:37):
I agree.

 

Rachel (01:47:38):
And I just don't think that works for everybody. And you know what? I think a lot of times, yes, I do think you need a medical detox, but I do think A PHP in housing could be just as good as in treatment.

 

Matt (01:47:53):
I think that at the start of a recovery journey, treatment is a good foundation.

 

Rachel (01:47:59):
It is. I needed that.

 

Matt (01:48:02):
I think most people, so there is that anomaly out there that they are determined they're going to be in recovery, and then they don't go to recovery into treatment, and they do it. And that is possible. But your likelihood of success would be greater if you went to treatment. But the average person going into recovery, they should go to treatment. But while you're in the middle of a recovery journey, whether it's you relapse six months from now, a year from now, whatever, depending on the severity, because you could relapse for months. And then I would say that's not part of the same recovery journey. But if we're talking about this person relapsed for a couple days and then came back immediately admitted to it, and this is still part of the same recovery episode and sending them to treatment will not do anything at that point. And people say, if you relapse, you restart. And I don't believe that when I relapsed, I did not restart. I just didn't. There was a lot of things that I had learned in my three plus years that I continued to bring forward with me that I use still to this day. That it's like,

 

Rachel (01:49:17):
What do you mean? As in they say, restart your steps over?

 

Matt (01:49:20):
No, no, no. Well, yeah, that is a given. That is a given. But they say you start from zero. Everything that had happened before means nothing. You have to start from zero. And this is the beginning. Again, I don't fundamentally agree with that because what about all the growth? What about all of the things that you've learned? What about all of the progress that you've made? You do not lose that unless you give it up.

 

Rachel (01:49:43):
Yes. Yeah. I don't know about resorting everything. I think you just kind of, let's look at where this led, right, and see what we're missing. That's what I think because how this treatment plan has been for this girl, this one individual, let's look at this. And ultimately, I've seen people, she was going to meetings, did stops, all that, but there's missing, right? Missing. And she's still interested in doing that.

 

Matt (01:50:09):
Send her to Dr. Shah.

 

Rachel (01:50:11):
She needs to go. And I already mentioned that to her a while ago, but she is doing IOP and everything right now. But it does make a difference with the doctor, and it does make a difference with a sponsor. Sorry. And I do believe that. This is what I think personally with the 12 steps, which I've done them several times, a few times. And because I've had many sponsors, I think I've had 1, 2, 3, 4, I've had five sponsors. And with that being said, I feel that the character defect portion of the character defect portion of the steps is really looked over,

 

Matt (01:51:05):
Not taken as seriously as it should be.

 

Rachel (01:51:07):
I feel like, I mean, it's the smallest chapter in the book. That's why I really drop the rock. I think that's a phenomenal book, Drop the Rock and the Ripple Effect. Those two books, I think that everybody needs to read those.

 

Matt (01:51:18):
Talking about books that constantly,

 

Rachel (01:51:19):
Those are amazing. Those two books are phenomenal. And I really feel like you just have to constantly be aware of your character defects. Because for me, what would trigger me a lot is allowing people to get to me, especially trauma with my ex-husband. And I bring him up just because of, he was for the first several years of my sobriety and my drinking got really, really bad. And I had a lot of trauma there and a lot of work to do with a therapist outside of AA to get through that. And I learned about myself like a character defect of my eye. I allowed him to get to me. I allowed it. So I have to always have that right here, right here in the front of me and wear it like an apron. Literally. It's right there. If I feel some type of way, I'm allowing that to get to me. So it's just a character defect of mine. There's just certain character defects that I know that they're still there. They don't ever go away. They get manageable, but it's part of your core from a trauma happening. Yeah,

 

Matt (01:52:23):
Definitely. Character defects are such a funny thing to talk about. Like we all have them. People who are not addicts have them. And it's more on display, I think for people who never have to face them. You talk about CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and how big a dick's normally they are and shit like that. But because they're massively successful, people are just, they overlook it. But for us, especially people in recovery, we look at 'em, take 'em very seriously. But you're right, it's like not only is it the shortest chapter, but it's also one of those things where when you're working the steps, the premium that everybody's always stuck on is the fourth and fifth. And that's where people literally get stuck and will stay. But they hardly ever, from my experience at least, it's like talking about character defects was never a sponsor conversation. It was like when they popped up, he would point them out. But it was never like a, well, let's list your character defects.

 

Rachel (01:53:31):
See, he was pointed out to me. He was pointing out to me when I did a really thorough with a sponsor. I did the 12 steps and doing that inventory and the four step and all that. I know it's like you hear so much about the four step, the four step, the fifth step. But the six and seven is really, I feel like that is where, and yes, making an amends as well, but if you're not paying attention to those character defects, I'm telling you, and I really hate that word trigger. I don't know why it bothers the shit out of me.

 

Matt (01:54:05):
No. So look,

 

Rachel (01:54:07):
It's not a trigger. Life is a fucking trigger.

 

Matt (01:54:09):
When I really got sober, and I say this on basically every podcast, now, there are two words that I had to completely cut out of my vocabulary. One of them was triggers. Because all a trigger is a really good excuse to use. Whenever I've been able to be like, oh, well, I was triggered.

 

Rachel (01:54:28):
No, it drives me nuts

 

Matt (01:54:30):
And cravings.

 

Rachel (01:54:31):
Okay,

 

Matt (01:54:31):
Cravings are bullshit. Triggers are bullshit.

 

Rachel (01:54:33):
I agree.

 

Matt (01:54:34):
It's like these are definitions that we allow.

 

Rachel (01:54:37):
Everything's a fucking trigger.

 

Matt (01:54:38):
And everything can be a craving.

 

Rachel (01:54:40):
Everything.

 

Matt (01:54:40):
What is a craving, right? When you crave food, it's a very distinct, you can almost taste it and you can feel it in your body when you crave drugs. It is nothing like that at all.

 

Rachel (01:54:53):
Right? And I feel like people ask me, have you ever wanted to use, I said, the thought is always, it comes through my brain. My brain's a sponge. It's going to remember, it's going to remember what it felt like, the calmness it bring, the feeling of it going down my throat, all those things, the carefree. But it also remembers the guilt, the shame, the actions behind it, the consequences, all those things. I'm going to remember it just like I remember if I had a massage, I know how good it feels. I know those things. I know what a roller coaster feels like. I know all those things. And oh, I want this. I want that. I know my brain is always going to remember that. Especially if when it starts getting cool out the patio, there's certain things, certain smells, it's always going to remember. And I feel like, oh, I had, when people say I have a craving, I'm like, craving, really? Or is it a fleeting thought? Because your brain is always going to have those fleeting thoughts. It passes. They're like, oh, well, I've had some craving. Craving is like, you're going in front of the damn, going to the drug dealer's house or you know what I mean? Going that extra mile. But it's just, it's not even a craving.

 

Matt (01:56:03):
No, look, when I have a craving, I'm headed to McDonald's and there is no stopping that. Right? And so I think

 

Rachel (01:56:09):
We have fleeting thoughts

 

Matt (01:56:10):
They've associated where it's kind of the same thing. And so they've allowed this definitionally us to say, oh, I had a craving. And they kind of understand what we're saying, but it's not the same thing. And so when I got sober, I had to cut three things out, really, two words and one music genre. I had to cut out rap, and I had to completely cut out triggers and cravings in my vocabulary specifically, because they were just excuses a hundred percent. That's all they were for me.

 

Rachel (01:56:40):
And you learned that through your last relapse?

 

Matt (01:56:41):
I learned that through my last relapse. Yeah.

 

Rachel (01:56:44):
Love that.

 

Matt (01:56:44):
Because I could easily have pointed to it and said, this is what happened. But the reality, this is really what happened. I no longer had a bunch of shit hanging over my head. I was in a situation where I was not doing what I needed to do on a daily basis. And it became a viable option because I wasn't doing anything else. And I was like, I have my own house nobody'll ever know. It'll be okay. I'm just going to use and it'll be all right. And for the most part, that was true. But I basically told on myself, my actions told on me. I stopped hanging out with my family. It was obvious to them that something was going on, and they caught it pretty early. And this is actually where all of this culminated at the exact same time, the person who molested me, it came out that he also molested other people in my family. This was all, it

 

Rachel (01:57:48):
It was a family member? Yes, same.

 

Matt (01:57:50):
Yeah. It was an uncle.

 

Rachel (01:57:52):
Was a cousin who took his life as well.

 

Matt (01:57:55):
During this relapse, they used that as an opportunity to ask me, is this what happened? And this was the first time that I said yes to anybody that, yeah, I'd been molested as a kid. And so a lot of things happened because of this relapse that I'm super grateful for. Obviously I have this one consequence, it's really fucked up, but I have to deal with it. I have to walk through that. And then

 

Rachel (01:58:19):
Your daughter.

 

Matt (01:58:21):
But other than that, it's like all of this harmony grove, the direction my life is going, all that happened because of my last relapse.

 

Rachel (01:58:27):
Is your is your wife in recovery as well, if y'all can both stay sober with the situation with your daughter, that's fucking phenomenal. I feel like you can do anything

 

Matt (01:58:36):
For sure. And I tell people that, right? If you can quit doing drugs and alcohol, you can do anything.

 

Rachel (01:58:42):
I agree. And I do believe part of staying sober and staying in a good mental state is being in gratitude for things. Gratitude does. And that was distilled on me very early on, just living in gratitude. It's so simple. So simple. I feel like the program and programs, I think they're overly complicated. Now. There's just so, I don't know. There's just so much going on. It's kind of messy. Like this, this, and all these rules and stipulations. It's rules. Rules. But the core beliefs of aa, like the gratitude and all that that has, even today, of course, we still struggle. I don't fucking lie to people. I'm not like, oh yeah, well, sobriety is just amazing and beautiful and rainbows and butterflies in a field with angels and blah, blah, blah. No, it is beautiful. There is a presence there. I get to be this person. I get to learn. It's still hard. Life is still hard, but this is an easier way. The other way's harder.

 

Matt (01:59:47):
It's much more worth it.

 

Rachel (01:59:48):
So worth it

 

Matt (01:59:49):
For sure.

 

Rachel (01:59:50):
And the blessings that come, it's been such an amazing experience and challenging. And you know what? All the things that I've gone through over the last almost 10 years, I haven't had a drink or use over at all. And I know that that's God for me. I don't use higher power. I say, God, whatever power you believe in. But for me, it's God. And just staying gratitude and present and not holding things in. I talk about everything.

 

Matt (02:00:22):
Yeah. It's a perspective thing. Ultimately, the gratitude keeps everything in perspective. If you lose, I'll speak for myself. If I Lee lose perspective on what's, I was living under a bridge five years ago. I was facing 33 years.

 

Rachel (02:00:38):
How was that? In a tent or literally both.

 

Matt (02:00:41):
Yeah. It was a choice that I made because

 

Rachel (02:00:44):
San Diego has a lot of homeless.

 

Matt (02:00:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of homeless.

 

Rachel (02:00:49):
Yeah. I went there,

 

Matt (02:00:50):
Massive community

 

Rachel (02:00:51):
Four, five years, four and a half years ago for work, for a treatment center. I was working for. And we went down there. They had a convention and I was driving,

 

Matt (02:01:00):
Wait, was it at the Civic Center?

 

Rachel (02:01:01):
Yeah.

 

Matt (02:01:02):
Yeah. I was at that event.

 

Rachel (02:01:04):
Were you,

 

Matt (02:01:05):
Because the treatments, I was in the last couple months of treatment.

 

Rachel (02:01:10):
What treatment were you at?

 

Matt (02:01:11):
I was at the, they actually sponsored it. It was called the Mission Academy.

 

Rachel (02:01:15):
What's crazy is, I swear that I met you before when I met you, you looked familiar. We had a booth there. I was with Serenity House detox before, but this was, let's say, I've been with Magnolia since they opened. It was before that. So it was probably like four and a half years ago. But I was there in San Diego, and I literally rented a car, drove around. It was so beautiful. And then I took my mom's. My mom always wanted to be spread on the beach, and I was like, there's no way in hell am I taking her to Galveston. It's ugly as hell. So I took her with me and I spread her on San Diego Beach. Yep.

 

Matt (02:01:54):
That's amazing.

 

Rachel (02:01:55):
It was so beautiful. And I was just like, I'm going to take her there. I'm going to take her with me. I mean, that was a long time after, but I was like, Hey. I was talking to her. I was like, Hey, this is way better. The water's clear, all that. And I did spread around that beach.

 

Matt (02:02:09):
Beautiful beaches. What beach? Beautiful.

 

Rachel (02:02:12):
It was a local beach that somebody told, I asked somebody where a good beach was, and they told me, I have no idea where it was.

 

Matt (02:02:17):
Did you have to cross a big bridge?

 

Rachel (02:02:19):
Yes,

 

Matt (02:02:20):
Coronado.

 

Rachel (02:02:21):
Yeah.

 

Matt (02:02:21):
Yeah. That's what they would tell you for sure. So the Navy Seals training facility is right there too.

 

Rachel (02:02:28):
You were in the Navy?

 

Matt (02:02:29):
No, no, no, no, no. But I was a junior lifeguard at that beach for years, and then spent a shitload of time on that island. So yeah, there is a lot of homeless people down there. It's a massive community. Massive. And it's a real community.

 

Rachel (02:02:46):
Massive, massive. Literally it's like 10 houses. It's like a whole community.

 

Matt (02:02:53):
Yeah. There's 2,500 homeless people downtown, just downtown.

 

Rachel (02:02:59):
That's where I drove through. I was like, damn, this makes downtown Houston here. Look and Austin. I mean, that's sad.

 

Matt (02:03:07):
Yeah. Are you aware of the huge scandal that's going on in California right now? Yes. Around the homeless people? So I was homeless,

 

Rachel (02:03:16):
Very aware

 

Matt (02:03:17):
When all of that was implemented. So Trump just made it federally legal to involuntarily commit homeless people to treatment. California did that in 2018, and I was homeless, and I watched all that go down When that huge package was formed, they created a bunch of NGOs and started distributing the money. Well, there was 32,000 homeless people in California when that started. And now there's 164,000 people. So it quadrupled, but they dumped 24 billion into it, and now they're investigating all the individual contracts that went out. There was one contract that they got a $20 million contract. They were supposed to build a facility and housed 130 people. They got all 20 million and never broke ground on the building. Right? The

 

Rachel (02:04:16):
Mayor,

 

Matt (02:04:17):
The mayor

 

Rachel (02:04:18):
Over there?

 

Matt (02:04:18):
No, no, no. It was just organizations were awarded monies around.

 

Rachel (02:04:25):
Okay, I see what you're saying. Saying, yeah, that's just awful.

 

Matt (02:04:27):
Yeah,

 

Rachel (02:04:27):
That's sad.

 

Matt (02:04:28):
But that was 20 million. The package was 24 billion.

 

Rachel (02:04:32):
Seriously?

 

Matt (02:04:33):
Yeah. Yeah. So this was huge, was massive. And they did a study in the beginning of the proposal of the package, and it was like, what would it cost to house every homeless person and give 'em a thousand dollars a month? And it was like $1.6 billion.

 

Rachel (02:04:52):
Damn.

 

Matt (02:04:52):
But they were like, they're going to be doing drugs in the houses and we're going to incentivize their using. And so they justified it and got it up to 24 billion. And at the end of this experiment, they quadrupled the homeless population. Fentanyl has killed in this amount of time, it's become the leading cause of death for people under 40 and 24 billion was misappropriated $24 billion. That's 24,000 million.

 

Rachel (02:05:22):
Somebody needs to be in federal prison or

 

Matt (02:05:23):
2,400 millions.

 

Rachel (02:05:25):
That is just wild. That is not okay.

 

Matt (02:05:28):
It is a lot of money, and it didn't do it made it worse. Right. But yeah, so I was living under a bridge five years ago. My life was not going in this direction at all. And it's like I learned all of this shit over the last 20 years of using who I am. Today is the accumulation of all of the painful moments and the lessons and the suffering. But even above and beyond all that, this last relapse was the most pivotal thing that I've ever done. For sure.

 

Rachel (02:06:04):
You had to have that experience to be where you are.

 

Matt (02:06:06):
And it was like, so I had all this shit over my head. It was very easy to not want those consequences, but I'd always still had the desire to stick a needle in my arm. It feels good. It feels good to shoot heroin. If it didn't, I wouldn't have done it for that long. But when I relapsed, I realized very quickly that I don't even want to do this anymore. And so, yes, I was sober for a long time. I was clean for a long time, a long time for me. But there was still a percentage of my mind that was always preoccupied. And now it's like I can fully give myself a hundred percent to things, and I probably still wouldn't be able to do that if it wasn't for that relapse.

 

Rachel (02:06:49):
You have purpose now.

 

Matt (02:06:50):
Yeah. And that is one of the greatest gifts of recovery. And this is why I tell people, if you're going to enter recovery and then just sit around on a couch, just stay using. It's fucking pointless to not help people.

 

Rachel (02:07:01):
There's no point. I was like, yeah, people ask me, why do you do what you do? I said, you think I went through all the shit in my entire life to bury that? There's something biblical. It comes out of a Bible, and I am not a Bible guru, but there's something like that. Taking everything, all my experience in burying it, I'm going to take that and use it. I'm not going to sit there. The talent, thank you.

 

Matt (02:07:20):
The talents parable.

 

Rachel (02:07:21):
Yes. So I'm not going to, no. I use my experiences and I help others. That's what is called in my heart to do. That's what God puts on my heart every day. But there's no way in hell, I just went all through all that for funsies. There's no way in hell. And now I think it's more easier to talk about now and to accept that was my life, and be able to not be embarrassed. All the things throughout my whole recovery journey to be able to talk about those, because I knew that I had to go through those to help somebody else. So I'm able to do that with so many different things. You know what I mean? And that to me is a gift. And if I didn't have purpose that I know I'd be drunk, I'd be dead, to be honest.

 

Matt (02:08:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I just don't see the point in all the experience in all of, and this is the other thing, I talk about the debt of recovery constantly because I accumulated a massive debt through just being a fucked up person and doing a bunch of bad shit to people. And that's a massive debt that I owe. But then when I entered real recovery and all of this other stuff that happened to me, now I have even more debt, and it's a debt that I'll forever have. And if I'm not paying that debt back on a daily basis, then it's so pointless for me to be doing any of this.

 

Rachel (02:08:44):
Right. I agree. And

 

Matt (02:08:46):
It's like a calling that I feel like all of us have. It is a responsibility. It's a debt that we all owe to everybody.

 

Rachel (02:08:57):
I mean, that's really in that big book too. And I know, I remember I was working with a sponsor and she was like, do not make your work your recovery. I don't. But

 

Matt (02:09:12):
It's a massive part of our recovery.

 

Rachel (02:09:14):
It is a part of our recovery. It's not like I'm, yes, I need me time as well, but it is service work. I don't care.

 

Matt (02:09:22):
At the end of the day,

 

Rachel (02:09:24):
It's service work.

 

Matt (02:09:25):
This is saving lives.

 

Rachel (02:09:27):
You're saving lives,

 

Matt (02:09:30):
And we're uniquely qualified. It is a very unique qualification. If it was up to people that was not in recovery to try to help these people, it wouldn't work. It just wouldn't.

 

Rachel (02:09:41):
Right. We went through it for a reason. There's a reason why we are the chosen.

 

Matt (02:09:47):
Yeah. We're not the chosen. We're the few that chose.

 

Rachel (02:09:50):
We're the few that chose. I like that.

 

Matt (02:09:53):
And so for anybody that is listening to this where it's like, if you are out there fucked up and struggling, it sucks. That shit sucks. But at the end of it, if you come out of it, there's a reason for all of it.

 

Rachel (02:10:08):
There is. I always tell that to people too. I'm on the phone with 'em and I'm like, this is just temporary. They're like, well, I don't want to, it's just do it. And then your mind will eventually follow. And I'm like, I didn't get a cell phone. I had to leave my six year daughter with a drunk alcoholic father, 6-year-old. But I had to think she could not, she doesn't need two drunk parents. I had to, and I thought that I went to treatment to get just sober in recovery. No, I didn't realize that I gained self-worth. I found who I was there. And to me, that meant the whole world. And now I'm able to be a present mother and just be able to lead, to be a leader, and to be an example, and to have solution. Today,

 

Matt (02:11:01):
I used my entire adult life, so I was never introduced to myself until I was an adult. And so one of the things that I've gained through all of this is I like who I am, the person that I am becoming, that I've already become. And the person that I think I'll be is somebody that I can like and respect, but I didn't know that person. I was a piece of shit. I was a piece of shit. And that person hated himself every day. But through the gift of recovery and the debt of recovery that I've amassed, I get to look in the mirror and be like, okay, yeah, you can do this. And you're not a shitty person anymore.

 

Rachel (02:11:49):
No, it's amazing. Recovery has really, it's been a blessing. I'm super grateful to where I am today. I mean, it's challenging, of course. Trying to balance, I think that's my biggest, I think that is the hardest thing for me to do today is kind of trying to balance work, life, family, all the things. It's just so hard.

 

Matt (02:12:15):
I mean, we're talking about people that historically have terrible boundaries. No professional acumen. We were fucking up while everybody else was being formally trained and getting their education and building their careers. We were out there fucking up. And so, yeah, it makes sense how boundaries are very hard to learn how to establish and keep, and then learning how to balance a life of work and family and play and responsibilities and shit like that. It is not easy.

 

Rachel (02:12:52):
No, it's not. And I've been more so I think in this past year, been bigger on boundaries. I think I've focused on that, and that's where my recovery's taken me. You know, go through different little avenues in your recovery. And that's where I'm at today. I'm like, Nope. My phone's going down at a certain time. Am I answering it? Sorry, I can't. Because at the end of the day, your kids are aware. That phone, my son's aware. It takes away, I have to be present. I have to be present. And it's hard. Trust me, it's hard. But at the end of the day, getting one person into treatment or affecting my son, no.

 

Matt (02:13:27):
Yeah. Scott, do you know Scott? My executive director? Yeah. He tells me, dude, stop calling these people on the weekend. I like weekends, holidays that shit doesn't mean anything to me. But for people who work means something, they're going to spend time with their family, and the last thing that they're doing they want to do is work when they're not being paid. And I'm calling our admissions guy and calling,

 

Rachel (02:13:53):
Oh, wait, I work seven days a week.

 

Matt (02:13:55):
Yeah, I,

 

Rachel (02:13:56):
But I am big on solutions, so I'm like, okay, we're going to come up with something like a different route, because we all need time with our, we all have young kids. We all need time with our families, and that's just as important. You know what I mean?

 

Matt (02:14:06):
Very important

 

Rachel (02:14:07):
Or more important, to be honest.

 

Matt (02:14:09):
You're raising the next generation.

 

Rachel (02:14:10):
Correct.

 

Matt (02:14:12):
And if the complaint is that fucked up parenting, then the only way to really have a say in that is to do better.

 

Rachel (02:14:22):
And it's social media

 

Matt (02:14:26):
Which is terrible.

 

Rachel (02:14:28):
All that stuff is absolutely terrible. Terrible. But we are glued to our phone for this job. But there has to be some boundaries because at the end of the day, I'm not going to allow my son to feel and my family to feel, which they're going to have to at some point because I do get, there's other, there's perks to this job as well,

 

(02:14:49):
Working in community liaison. I don't like to say business development at all. The business is already developed, and I'm just not a salesy person. But at the end of the day though, I can sell some shit, but I just know you have to be on your phone. Okay, I get that. But there has to be a line, a fine line, because at the end of the day, he's two, he can see, and my daughter already knows my husband, I used to drive my husband nuts when we first started dating. He's like, are you fucking kidding me? This is ridiculous. Now I'm more of aware, and I've established myself enough, and I think I'm more confident enough and solution oriented to where we can figure out a solution. The company can have a whole referral sheet and they can reach out to them directly, and we don't have to handle those referrals after hours and on weekends, so we can have that time. But they do become aware of you being on a phone, and

 

Matt (02:15:47):
The disconnect is what they notice. Yeah.

 

Rachel (02:15:49):
You're not present.

 

Matt (02:15:50):
Mom is constantly looking at her phone, and I'm trying to get her attention. There's a disconnect and learning how healthy boundaries, because boundaries and then there's healthy boundaries, but it will set you apart. Their burnout is a massive thing in this industry.

 

Rachel (02:16:10):
Huge,

 

Matt (02:16:10):
Constant turnover. There's a treatment center that I know of. It's like 95% since the beginning of the year. 95% of their staff is turned over.

 

Rachel (02:16:22):
There's that. And then a lot of people, treatment hop a lot too, though. Workwise.

 

Matt (02:16:27):
There is that too.

 

Rachel (02:16:28):
They hop from place to place

 

Matt (02:16:29):
Poaching. Poaching, and then they're always looking for better opportunities. There is a lot of opportunity in this industry, though.

 

Rachel (02:16:36):
There is. I just like to bring myself with a place, you know what I mean? Because I've been there since it opened. Now I'm not saying, I'll never entertain a conversation to see where it goes, because you never know what God puts in front of you.

 

Matt (02:16:51):
Yeah. Brand loyalty goes a long way with me though, too.

 

Rachel (02:16:55):
Yeah. I've been with us for, I've been since we opened, so three and a half years.

 

Matt (02:17:01):
Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Well,

 

Rachel (02:17:05):
I'm just big on that. And I'm loyal to fault sometimes, but I like it. I just like it. I know the ins and outs. I know what we offer. I know people know that I'm related to that place and they call me. And

 

Matt (02:17:24):
There's a difference though, too, right? There's being loyal and then there's standing behind what you stand for. When people are attached to a company or an organization where they believe in the product, they're going to stay. And I think that that is a big part of why there's a lot of turnover. People get involved within an organization and be like, I don't agree with what's going on here. And they're immediately looking.

 

Rachel (02:17:50):
And if there's things that I don't agree with, I'm very vocal. There's things that are going to happen. We're privately owned too. It's not corporate. I know the owners very well, so that makes a huge difference to me. I've worked for corporate, well, my old company I worked for was a privately owned and got bought out by corporate, and I was like, never again. Will I work for a corporate company. I just can't. It's different. So I'm just really big on that.

 

Matt (02:18:13):
Do you know Ian, have you met Ian?

 

Rachel (02:18:15):
Ian Brown?

 

Matt (02:18:16):
No.

 

Rachel (02:18:16):
Who?

 

Matt (02:18:16):
Our admissions guy.

 

Rachel (02:18:18):
No, but he left me a voicemail.

 

Matt (02:18:20):
He's amazing. But he's like, the treatment industry and the Italian restaurant industry have the same problems. You'll have a restaurant that comes into town. They're flying all their cousins in from Italy. There's a great product. The people in the front barely speak English, and they're trying to help you with the menu or whatever, and it's amazing food. And then somebody in the back will be like, oh, we can save a dollar here. We can do this, we can do this. And then they end up, the management changes. Maybe the ownership changes. It's a great restaurant. So they sell it. And the next thing you know can see it on the Yelp. Yelp reviews where it's like, five years ago, this was the best Italian food. Now, I don't know. I don't know what happened. It's like,

 

Rachel (02:19:01):
It loses it.

 

Matt (02:19:03):
Yeah. They lose the vision. They lose the direction

 

Rachel (02:19:06):
And then the people that made it up made it up from where it came from. Yeah. Just, yeah. I'm just grateful today, though.

 

Matt (02:19:16):
Good.

 

Rachel (02:19:16):
And I'm grateful that you had me here. I appreciate it. This has been awesome. Just a candid conversation about, we talked about a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Matt (02:19:26):
I appreciate you coming too. Thanks for listening to My Last Relapse. I'm Matt Handy, the founder of Harmony Grove Behavioral Health, Houston, Texas, where our mission is to provide compassionate evidence-based care for anyone facing addiction, mental health challenges, and co-occurring disorders. Find out more at harmonygrovebh.com. Follow and subscribe to My Last Relapse on YouTube, apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you like to stream podcasts. Got a question for us? Leave a message or voicemail at mylastrelapse.com. If you're feeling overwhelmed or struggling, you don't have to face it alone. Reaching out for support is a sign of strength and help is always available. If you or anyone needs help, give us a call 24 hours a day at 8 8 8 - 6 9 1 - 8 2 9 5.