Life After Graduating High School at 16, Selling Coke in Strip Clubs, and 2 Dead Boyfriends

MLR041 Apurva FINAL.mp3

Apurva:
00:00 - 00:13
Oh, that's right. He was angry at the time. He was so angry. Like, everybody was throwing tootsie rolls at him to shut him up. Like, if the chair looked at him wrong, like, "Fuck that chair!"

Matt Handy:
00:13 - 00:20
I'm Matt Handy and you're listening to My Last Relapse. How long did it take to become a nurse practitioner?

Apurva:
00:21 - 00:28
Um, so, it took three years after I got my bachelor's.

Matt Handy:
00:29 - 00:30
Three years after you got your...

Apurva:
00:30 - 00:50
So I became a nurse in 2018. And then I just kept going. So I've been a nurse practitioner since, God bless, since my child was born, 22. So January 23.

Matt Handy:
00:52 - 00:55
So what is the difference between a regular nurse and a nurse practitioner?

Apurva:
00:56 - 00:59
A nurse practitioner can prescribe.

Matt Handy:
00:59 - 01:00
Okay. So you like.

Apurva:
01:01 - 01:04
We can do everything except procedures like doctors.

Matt Handy:
01:04 - 01:04
Okay.

Apurva:
01:05 - 01:12
Yeah. So it's like doctor, nurse practitioner, and then nurse. A bunch of other stuff. Yeah. I mean, I hate doing that.

Speaker 1:
01:12 - 01:12
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:12 - 01:15
Because we're all together. Like that's how I feel.

Matt Handy:
01:15 - 01:15
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:16 - 01:18
Because I can't do mine if you can't do yours.

Matt Handy:
01:19 - 01:57
Yeah, for sure. I mean, the medical industry is a beast anyway. We have, so Dr. Shah and I are looking at really changing addiction medicine, just period, changing the way that specifically relapse is addressed. I'm sure you've heard all this stuff from him, right? Yeah. And so we, since him and I have like joined forces, we've created businesses and like really started getting copyright protection. And we were looking at a patent for a while and then we got a bunch of information about that stuff. And so we are really creating the package now.

Apurva:
01:58 - 02:00
I have, my brother-in-law is a patent lawyer.

Matt Handy:
02:00 - 02:06
So my uncle, my uncle works at the top patent and contracts firm in the world.

Apurva:
02:06 - 02:11
Oh, nice. Right? Yeah, I heard y'all are like a lawyer family. Yeah. Everybody that you have is lawyers.

Matt Handy:
02:11 - 02:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we got him on the phone and he like kind of broke it down for us. And he specializes in medical patents and contracts. And so he, he helped us. He's actually done like some really crazy stuff. Let's see. WebMD.

Apurva:
02:25 - 02:26
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:26 - 02:28
He helped with all of their patents and contracts.

Apurva:
02:29 - 02:29
Oh, wow

Matt Handy:
02:29 - 02:42
Yeah. Cool. Or all their contracts. But they were trying to like patent some stuff too. He also has worked with like doctors. So love Dr. Shaw. But ask him to make a business out of his idea and it just.

Apurva:
02:43 - 02:52
Well, that's why he's a doctor. Yeah. Same with me. I'm like, so like my business partner, like, thank God she like, I'm just like, oh, okay, whatever. you know and then she's very like you know like organized and like she can figure you know very you know she will find every single penny for it and i'm like yeah it's fine if they just lose five dollars

Matt Handy:
02:52 - 03:25
so that's what's cool about our partnership is jericho like went to a really high level accounting school right and then worked with some like the big four in the accounting world like really really got that like under his belt and then worked for a couple private equity places and like really learned

Matt Handy:
03:25 - 03:54
how to like raise capital and so i get to do operations and i get to do what i want to do and not have to worry about anything yeah that's beautiful yeah and then with dr shaw dr shaw's brain like his mind is amazing and so we sit for hours every week and just record conversations. And like, this is where the whole podcast thing came in was like, the idea was I can be the client and you can be the doctor and we can just discuss stuff. Right.

Matt Handy:
03:54 - 04:08
And so we're creating a bunch of content around that kind of stuff. And ultimately it's the ground floor of this giant package that we're creating around the company's called NeuroWise. Nice. So it's neuro W-I-S-E and it's an acronym.

Speaker 1:
04:08 - 04:09
Okay.

Matt Handy:
04:09 - 04:13
Right. And so we have like modules created around it now and like,

Speaker 1:
04:13 - 04:13
Wow.

Apurva:
04:14 - 04:17
It's really cool. I'm really excited. I want to see. I want to be a part of.

Matt Handy:
04:18 - 04:19
Yeah. I mean, so.

Apurva:
04:19 - 04:24
You just have to tell me what I need to do. And I mean, I like, I love recovery no matter what.

Matt Handy:
04:24 - 04:51
Yeah. So, I mean, ultimately, I mean, you're in the medical side of it too. So, you see this more often than. And I, so, I think there's levels of curtains, right? There's like the inner sanctum of like what goes on in the recovery industry. Yeah. And then there's like layers of people being exposed to the truth of what's behind the curtain. Right. And I think like the average client is on like the very outside of the realities of what goes on in treatment.

Matt Handy:
04:51 - 05:03
And then there's like levels where it's like you get more access and you get more knowledge. You get more access and you get more knowledge. And as you get closer to like fully seeing what's going on under the hood, you start to see like, oh.

Apurva:
05:04 - 05:31
So when I worked at Serenity, when they first started, I was a recovery advocate. And then I decided to go become a nurse. And then what's that? Hurricane Harvey happened and like basically like everybody. So I was like, oh, well, I mean, I'm almost done. So I just went and became a nurse. And then I came back full circle. It was a nurse practitioner thing. But then I was seeing the other side of not being like on the recovery advocate side. So I never understood it.

Matt Handy:
05:31 - 05:53
So there's like the tip of the tip of the spear of recovery work. Right. And this is like the ground floor people. It's the people who are in recovery. that are now recovery coaches and then counselors and like LCDCs, they're always in recovery, right? And they're kind of like the tip of the spear as far as like addressing issues individually, like on an individual level within organizations. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
05:53 - 06:16
But then you've got like the higher levels of like administrative tasks and like decision-making where you see that there is a total disconnect between what the people at the tip of the spear are saying and what's actually going on. Yep. And so, you know, everybody on the street, like everybody like boots on the ground, they're all like we're in the business of saving lives. The reality is we're not in the business of saving lives.

Matt Handy:
06:16 - 06:32
We're in the business of saving lives that can afford it. Yep. And so we're trying to change that, like the access to it. And like parity was like a big step in the right direction. But do you know who the Recovery Research Institute is?

Speaker 1:
06:32 - 06:32
Mm-mm.

Matt Handy:
06:33 - 06:42
Okay. You should definitely look into them. Yeah. SAMHSA, you know who they are, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. SAMHSA is the government arm of like addiction medicine and policy setting.

Speaker 1:
06:42 - 06:42
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
06:43 - 06:54
Under that, they need to justify funding, right? And so they have this research arm. It's called the Recovery Research Institute that they kind of defer to for information.

Speaker 1:
06:55 - 06:55
Okay.

Matt Handy:
06:55 - 07:08
And so they have like a bunch of doctors and like recovery people. So William White, you've probably heard the name. I have. William White is like a big person when it comes to like metadata studies around outcomes.

Speaker 1:
07:08 - 07:08
Okay.

Matt Handy:
07:09 - 07:37
And there's a bunch of them though, like Dr. Kelly, him. There's like six or seven people that are like the heads of this organization. They're all older, right? And they've kind of watched as like the eras of treatment kind of unfolded, right? And so up until 2008, it was cash pay. It was no insurance. It was highly like it was almost a secret society to try to like access care on this level at least, right? Yeah.

Apurva:
07:38 - 07:40
Then the AC – My probation officer sent me.

Matt Handy:
07:41 - 08:02
So that's a whole other side of it, right? There's like the state-funded side of treatment. And so one of the things that I found was interesting was the Recovery Research Institute. They were the first people to come up with the phrase. Now what it is is exposure to treatment dictates outcomes. Have you heard this?

Matt Handy:
08:04 - 08:36
Mm-mm. So now the phrase is exposure to treatment dictates outcomes. When it first was coined, it was exposure to length of treatment dictates outcomes. Then the ACA happened and parity, and they normalized the 28-day structure. And so they kind of dropped out the length part of it. And so there's like – you can look at – they came up with the dictionary. Have you heard of this? Yeah, I've heard of that. So they came up with it.

Speaker 1:
08:36 - 08:36
Oh.

Speaker 1:
08:37 - 08:37
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
08:39 - 09:16
It's like on – it's on their website, right? And so you look at like the history of how we ended up here. And ultimately, my whole question about where we're at today is how did we end up here? Because we're completely failing, right? It's like a 98.5% failure rate when it comes to first-time treatment exposure. And then statistics that they've come up with is it takes one out of ten will stay clean for a year. Out of that 10%, one out of ten will stay clean for ten years. But you have to go to treatment seven times before that happens.

Speaker 1:
09:16 - 09:16
Oh,

Speaker 1:
09:16 - 09:17
that's...

Matt Handy:
09:18 - 09:19
It's astronomical.

Apurva:
09:19 - 09:24
Yeah, I don't think that's true. Well, I mean in my little world that I live in.

Matt Handy:
09:25 - 09:26
You're talking like that it's probably worse than that?

Apurva:
09:27 - 09:30
Well, I don't think somebody needs to go to treatment seven times.

Matt Handy:
09:30 - 09:39
I mean – No, we're talking about like the statistics of outcomes. Today, what they're saying is that the average person needs to go to treatment seven times before they stay clean for one full year.

Speaker 1:
09:41 - 09:42
That's a lot of times.

Matt Handy:
09:42 - 09:50
I mean I just talked to somebody that went to treatment 64 times. I talked to another person a couple weeks ago 28 times. I went to treatment seven times.

Speaker 1:
09:51 - 09:51
I'm three.

Speaker 1:
09:52 - 09:52
See,

Matt Handy:
09:52 - 09:57
so you're like the 50 percentile of that statistic though.

Speaker 1:
09:57 - 09:57
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
09:58 - 10:06
Right? We're talking about how many people do you know went to treatment over and over and over and over. At Serenity, think about how many times you would see the same person.

Apurva:
10:07 - 10:13
I wonder how many times people don't go to treatment and get sober. I wonder what that statistic looks like.

Matt Handy:
10:13 - 10:42
So the Recovery Research Institute has – it's like they have theories and then they have some statistical data around this. But it's hard to report that because if they're not participating in treatment, how do you know if they're actually getting sober? Well, not just that. They're not going to report. Right. And so what they're saying is – or not them specifically, but some of the research that I've seen is that what they're saying is that if you go to treatment once,

Matt Handy:
10:42 - 10:56
there's a high likelihood that you'll end up going seven times. And if you go to treatment and it doesn't work the first time, then it's then every time after that it becomes easier. Your relapse cycle becomes easier and easier and easier.

Apurva:
10:56 - 10:58
Yeah, I could say that.

Speaker 1:
10:58 - 10:59
But I don't know.

Apurva:
11:00 - 11:06
That's a hard because how do you judge each person? Each person is different, right? Well,

Matt Handy:
11:06 - 11:17
I know that they've standardized metrics for success, right? And it's the insurance agencies have to justify.

Speaker 1:
11:17 - 11:18
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
11:18 - 11:36
And so they're looking at fiscal years, right? They're not looking at outcomes for 12 calendars, like 12 calendar months. They're looking at if somebody went to treatment in December and they stayed clean till January, they stayed clean for that fiscal year. If somebody went in, if somebody went.

Apurva:
11:36 - 11:38
See, I just don't have this brain power. Like, I just.

Matt Handy:
11:40 - 12:10
If somebody goes to treatment in July and they stay clean until January, they stay clean for a year. Yeah. If somebody goes to treatment in November and they relapse in December, they went to treatment one time that year. But then they can go to treatment in January and it's two different years. Right? And so they've standardized like success rates. They've standardized all this stuff so that they can justify funding and all this other stuff.

Matt Handy:
12:10 - 12:40
But what's really happening is that they're fudging the numbers around success rates. Right? Because the average treatment center, and I'm not saying they do this, but in order to get like a five. So in order to sell Harmony Grove, I'm looking to get a valuation on my annual revenue. Right? And so in order to get a 5X multiplier on my annual revenue, I need a 5% success rate. So to maximize my valuation, to get a 10X success rate, I only need 13%.

Matt Handy:
12:41 - 12:48
Those are like the highly successful treatment centers have a 13% success rate, which is are you keeping your clients clean for that fiscal year?

Apurva:
12:48 - 12:53
So you just got to keep them sober until the fiscal year. Yeah. That's basically.

Matt Handy:
12:53 - 12:53
Yeah.

Apurva:
12:54 - 13:00
So kind of like heart failure. Like you got to keep them out of the hospital for minimally 30 days or else you don't get reimbursed.

Matt Handy:
13:00 - 13:01
I mean, so that's.

Apurva:
13:02 - 13:03
Yes, it's the same.

Matt Handy:
13:03 - 13:24
We're working on the same system. It's the same payers. It's the same. So they're looking at these things going, how are we going to save money basically is what it is. Like in order to justify the treatment, they have to meet criteria. In order to meet criteria, we have to have a standardized system around success rates. What is the success rate? Fiscal year. Fiscal year sobriety.

Matt Handy:
13:25 - 13:52
And so there's a lot of things that go into like the statistics that they're coming up with around what we're talking about. And it sounds crazy. But the reality is like we are – I just read another article that the government put out like three years ago that said 95 percent of all people will relapse within the first 90 days of leaving treatment. Ninety-five percent of people relapse within the first 90 days.

Speaker 1:
13:53 - 13:54
Wow.

Matt Handy:
13:55 - 13:59
And there's a government report. But I could see it too. Yeah. Well, okay.

Apurva:
13:59 - 14:35
Like, I mean, just in the little recovery, you know, experience that I have, you know, like I just I mean, I just go to I go to AA and I'm like, oh, look at all these people that stay sober. And that's my only experience with it. And I'm like, everybody should go to AA. But I can't tell you how many times I see a person like I do a 12 step call at the hospital and people that I know, you know, that I know. I was like, oh, I know you. You go to Lane. You know. Yeah. And so that's 95% of people relapsed in the first 90 days. Have you gone to treatment?

Speaker 1:
14:36 - 14:37
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
14:37 - 14:37
Okay.

Speaker 1:
14:37 - 14:38
Three times.

Matt Handy:
14:38 - 14:43
Okay, three times. So how many times did they tell you that one out of 30 will stay clean for a year?

Apurva:
14:43 - 14:47
Oh, yeah. They did the whole if you turn this side aside and like.

Matt Handy:
14:47 - 14:55
That's 0.33%. Yeah. 0.3. That's not 1%. That's not 5%. That's 0.33%. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
14:55 - 14:55
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
14:56 - 15:03
So when you really extrapolate that out, if that is true, then what they're saying is that it's even worse than we think.

Speaker 1:
15:05 - 15:05
Right?

Speaker 1:
15:05 - 15:05
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
15:06 - 15:06
So, I mean.

Apurva:
15:07 - 15:15
So what are we doing? What is the treatment center? Why are we not able to get to those individuals that are relapsing, especially the ones that go over and over?

Matt Handy:
15:16 - 15:21
Well, we think we know. We think that there's a biological component to relapse that has not been addressed.

Apurva:
15:21 - 15:53
That's what I'm really interested in. When I heard that that's what Dr. Shah's experiment or study. The whole study is about. Yeah. I was like, oh, that's kind of in it. Because I was looking at his protocol of meds when I was over there. And I was like, that's an interest. Why are you? And then he explained Depakote and why we're doing these things. And I was like, okay. I'm not a neuro person. But I was like, okay, I'm going to go with it.

Matt Handy:
15:55 - 16:00
It's really interesting because you know who Menninger is, right? Yeah. So Menninger does targeted TMS.

Speaker 1:
16:02 - 16:02
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
16:02 - 16:04
Right? Have you heard about this whole thing that they're doing? Yeah,

Apurva:
16:04 - 16:06
the little clinic thing. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
16:06 - 16:15
So they are doing the exact same thing that we are doing just with a different protocol. They are literally resetting the amygdala.

Speaker 1:
16:16 - 16:16
That's crazy.

Matt Handy:
16:17 - 16:24
Yeah. And so they're addressing it differently. The thing about TMS that blows my mind, have you seen the efficacy rates of TMS?

Speaker 1:
16:25 - 16:25
No.

Matt Handy:
16:25 - 16:43
Dude, okay. So on average, a person will struggle with anxiety and depression for 13 years before they ever sit at a TMS machine. 50% of all patients who sit at a single TMS session have a 95% success rate.

Apurva:
16:43 - 16:45
What is included in that? What is in the TMS?

Matt Handy:
16:46 - 16:53
So transcranial magnetic systems, right? Yeah. So they go into a tube.

Speaker 1:
16:53 - 16:54
Do you know what it is?

Apurva:
16:54 - 16:55
Not exactly.

Matt Handy:
16:55 - 17:28
So you sit on a chair and this giant helmet gets put on your head and it's just magnets. And so they're charging the magnets with different polarities and they're targeting specific pathways in your brain to stimulate like growth and activity. And so ultimately what they're saying, like what TMS – so in order for insurance to pay for a TMS treatment, you have to exhaust all of your medication avenues first. Why are we doing that if we know that it's massively successful? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
17:28 - 17:28
Right?

Apurva:
17:29 - 17:42
Like why are we intentionally – Why are we putting somebody on like Xanax and Boost Bar and trying all of these things and then by the end they're – Why are we – this is in my head ultimately what – and this is why I say like that the payers set the pace for treatment.

Matt Handy:
17:43 - 18:11
The payers set the pace for what we are looking at as far as metrics. And ultimately, my whole question is, are we sacrificing lives to make money? Because if we know that TMS is massively successful, why are you waiting 10 years to let them participate in this treatment that's super successful? You're making them go out there and suffer on medications that don't help. So are we, like, what's going on here?

Apurva:
18:12 - 18:14
Yeah, I mean, it's all about money.

Matt Handy:
18:14 - 18:27
Yeah, it's all about, I mean, it's an industry, right? And in the nonprofit sector of recovery, you know, they don't even call it an industry. They call it the field of addiction or the field of recovery.

Speaker 1:
18:28 - 18:28
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
18:28 - 18:29
I've heard that.

Matt Handy:
18:29 - 19:01
And so the fact that the privatized side of or the for-profit side of treatment calls it an industry, Like if you're really thinking about what you're saying, what you're very, very like acutely signaling that we have an industry, right? Industry means something. What does it mean, right? Like when you really start breaking down like what are we doing here and you start thinking about the definitions and the words that they're using, I'm like, oh, shit. Like we are a machine.

Apurva:
19:01 - 19:04
Yeah, we're not doing what's best for us.

Speaker 1:
19:05 - 19:05
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
19:05 - 19:09
No, no, no. We're doing what's best for us. We're not doing what's best for the clients.

Speaker 1:
19:09 - 19:10
Well,

Speaker 1:
19:10 - 19:10
yeah.

Speaker 1:
19:11 - 19:11
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
19:11 - 19:11
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
19:13 - 19:13
So,

Apurva:
19:13 - 19:28
I mean, I'm not shocked, unfortunately. I mean, when I see all of the things that, you know, like the hospital systems and all of that, like, I mean, it's all a business. Like, if you don't have insurance, guess what? You're going home.

Speaker 1:
19:29 - 19:30
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
19:30 - 19:30
Or,

Speaker 1:
19:30 - 19:31
you know,

Speaker 1:
19:31 - 19:31
like,

Matt Handy:
19:31 - 19:38
so I was homeless for a long time. Yeah. And you get to the point where you're accessing health care through an emergency room.

Speaker 1:
19:38 - 19:39
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
19:39 - 19:40
Because they can't turn you away.

Speaker 1:
19:40 - 19:40
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
19:41 - 19:41
Right.

Matt Handy:
19:41 - 19:49
And so not only are you waiting until like you absolutely need to access it that way, but the fact that people are accessing that way.

Apurva:
19:50 - 20:15
And then nobody pays the bills. Hospitals are losing money. So then the people that do have the insurance, right, like they're paying because they're now they're charging. There's like a formula that they, you know, to factor in all of those losses. So they have to make sure that we're paying for, you know, the other people that aren't paying their bills, you know. But then like for a bag of saline is $300.

Matt Handy:
20:16 - 20:25
So in the treatment industry, there was like the whole yellow gold rush. Do you remember this? People were charging, they were getting $1,500 reimbursements for urine tests.

Speaker 1:
20:26 - 20:27
Oh,

Speaker 1:
20:27 - 20:27
jeez.

Matt Handy:
20:27 - 20:49
Well, I mean a bunch of people went to prison over this, right? Yeah. Because it's Medicaid fraud. But they were doing it. And they were like, okay, we have a $700,000 outstanding debt that clients just owe us. How are we going to make this back? And they're like, oh, we can – you're telling me we can charge? Okay, well, we're going to start testing all the clients every day.

Speaker 1:
20:51 - 20:52
That's what they did.

Apurva:
20:52 - 21:11
Oh, my gosh. I mean it's shocking. Like it's really sad. And it's what's even sadder is, like, it's the people that are getting addicted are getting addicted because of, like, such simple things like the whole, you know, OxyContin, Purdue, Sackler family.

Matt Handy:
21:12 - 21:15
I was a product of all that.

Apurva:
21:15 - 21:29
Yeah. Oh, goodness. The little pill. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just, and then they're just sitting there living their beautiful life and they're literally the reason why.

Speaker 1:
21:33 - 21:34
Yeah.

Apurva:
21:35 - 21:36
This whole country, like.

Matt Handy:
21:37 - 21:40
Well, I mean, America loves their drugs.

Speaker 1:
21:40 - 21:41
Mm-hmm.

Matt Handy:
21:42 - 21:57
And there's a market for it. And unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where everybody is either one or two degrees of separation away from an active addict today. So that's either a family member or a friend. Everybody knows somebody.

Speaker 1:
21:58 - 21:58
Oh,

Speaker 1:
21:58 - 21:58
yeah.

Speaker 1:
21:59 - 21:59
I mean,

Apurva:
21:59 - 22:12
my family, it was me. My dad drank, but he could stop. But me, I went on a whole different level. I'm the first to go to jail.

Speaker 1:
22:14 - 22:14
first.

Matt Handy:
22:14 - 22:15
What'd you go to jail for?

Apurva:
22:16 - 22:17
I had two DWIs.

Matt Handy:
22:18 - 22:21
And then you became a nurse practitioner after.

Speaker 1:
22:21 - 22:22
That is so interesting.

Speaker 1:
22:22 - 22:23
Yeah.

Apurva:
22:23 - 22:40
So I was a pharmacy technician. I always laughed because I was like, I'm a legal drug dealer. And so then I did that and then I worked in a pharmacy for God bless, like 13 years, like various ones. And then my addiction kind of they asked me to leave very nicely.

Matt Handy:
22:41 - 22:42
Did you ever take meds?

Apurva:
22:43 - 22:44
Do I take meds? No, no, no.

Matt Handy:
22:44 - 22:46
Did you ever take them from the pharmacy?

Apurva:
22:46 - 23:04
Okay. I actually never did. Shockingly. I would give like some of the patients that I knew like extra Viagra, but like I would never give like extra anything else. They need that Viagra. You know, like as long as you're not on some of these, I so swear, but I was good. Like here you go,

Speaker 1:
23:04 - 23:04
old man.

Apurva:
23:05 - 23:07
It wasn't for me. It was for him and his wife.

Matt Handy:
23:08 - 23:11
That's the kindhearted pharmacist right there.

Apurva:
23:11 - 23:26
Yeah. That was about all I, yeah. I didn't do very much. I mean, now, don't get me wrong. I did things to myself. Like, I would snort, like, crystal meth when I worked at the pharmacy. I was a big cocaine addict for a long time.

Matt Handy:
23:27 - 23:34
Okay. So, let's go over all that. Tell me, like, start with your childhood. Okay. Go into, so I'll structure it like this.

Speaker 1:
23:36 - 23:36
Childhood,

Speaker 1:
23:36 - 23:37
because.

Apurva:
23:37 - 23:38
My experience from the.

Matt Handy:
23:39 - 24:01
So, you're Indian, right? Yeah. Brown. Yeah. So childhood, because your guys' culture is really interesting to me to say that. Are you from India? Okay. Are your parents from India? Okay. Okay. For sure. So childhood experience, what was all that like? What was middle school and high school like? And then where did your addiction start? And we'll figure it out from there.

Speaker 1:
24:01 - 24:01
Okay.

Apurva:
24:02 - 24:46
All right. So childhood, I was born and raised in Alief. So I graduated from Elstic High School. I was, my parents, I'm the first American born in my whole family. Wow. So there was a lot of, did you do the right thing moving? And, you know, all of that pressure to the family, to my parents. So my dad moved here initially and then went back to India and then got married to my mom. And then three months later, like, they were living here. Like, that was it. Like, he raised his hand on a bus, and my mom married him. Like, it was already set. It was bizarre.

Speaker 1:
24:46 - 24:47
Okay,

Speaker 1:
24:47 - 24:47
explain that.

Apurva:
24:48 - 25:04
So, my mom lived in the city called Vizag. My dad lived in a city called Cacunada. So, somehow, you know, they knew of each other, like, family-wise. Was this arranged? Yes. Oh, okay, all right. Yeah, so they, like, so my dad— Did she get a dowry?

Speaker 1:
25:04 - 25:05
No.

Speaker 1:
25:05 - 25:05
Okay.

Apurva:
25:06 - 25:31
They did. My grandfather was a doctor, so he gave my mom, like, some gold just in case. But, like, he was never – he never gave it to my dad. But, like, my dad lived in America. Like, that's where everybody wanted to go. He was a PhD, you know. So all of the – Checked all the boxes. Yeah. And then, like, he came from a good family. Like, there was no drama until I was born.

Matt Handy:
25:32 - 25:35
So were you from the part of India that had caste systems?

Apurva:
25:35 - 25:37
The whole country has caste systems.

Matt Handy:
25:37 - 25:42
Okay. I know there's like, it's more pronounced and extreme in other places, right? Than others?

Apurva:
25:42 - 25:57
Yes. So I, my parents were the same caste. So there was no such thing. There was, we had a few outlier family members that like married out of their caste, but it was close enough.

Matt Handy:
25:57 - 26:00
They can marry up though, right? They can't marry down or something like that?

Apurva:
26:02 - 26:15
They can't marry either way. Okay. Mostly, I mean, if you're going to go, you need to go up. Yeah. Basically. Which is funny. The girl has to go up. Yeah. Like, if a guy can't go up, then, like, that just, like, the girl, like, there's, yeah, that's, like, shunned.

Speaker 1:
26:16 - 26:16
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
26:16 - 26:17
They're like.

Matt Handy:
26:17 - 26:21
Well, I mean, just by nature of what we're talking about, somebody's going to marry down.

Apurva:
26:22 - 26:33
Absolutely. So. Yeah. So, but they did not. My mom was the perfect daughter. Really? Like, just, she's, I mean, even at 51 years old, if my grandfather said,

Apurva:
26:33 - 27:06
you're not allowed cross the street she won't cross the street like i was like but you know the language we're just going to get like mangoes you know you have three children in a different country wow and she's like but that's what my dad said and i said okay well i'm not like this kind of a thing um no i was good um so we grew up in a leaf um and then um it's me i have a little sister and a little brother My brother is 10 years younger. My sister is three years younger than me.

Apurva:
27:06 - 27:17
So we grew up very Indian. So I did Indian classical dance. Did they still live in Aleve? No. We moved to Sugar Land when we found a dead body.

Speaker 1:
27:18 - 27:18
Yeah.

Apurva:
27:19 - 27:58
That was the, you know, Clayton Oaks was literally walking distance to West Oaks Mall. It was like a mile down. And then my brother found a dead body and then my dad had a gun pointed to his head because he stepped in some neighbor's lawn. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And so we were like – and then my brother was so – was young, you know, and very influenced by other people. So we were like – so, of course, what did we do? We went to Sugar Land. Yeah. My brother graduated from Austin. So they're still in the same house. for the last 25 years.

Matt Handy:
27:58 - 28:04
Can your mom cook? Yes. Oh, I've got to, I love Indian food.

Apurva:
28:04 - 28:07
Yes. She cooks South, like we're South Indian.

Matt Handy:
28:08 - 28:10
Is that like the spicy side of it? Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
28:10 - 28:10
Oh yeah.

Apurva:
28:10 - 28:45
Yeah, she's lost her taste buds. So like now it's on a whole different level of spicy. And I'm like, like we can smell spicy. Eyes are like watering when you get out of the car. And I can handle my spice, but I was like, I don't know what you're doing lady, But she's a little crazy, my mom. So is my dad. They're very – they're like – have you ever seen the show Everybody Loves Raymond? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's my – those are my parents. Like minus the being Italian. That's funny. Yeah. So, yeah.

Apurva:
28:46 - 29:15
So I went to, you know, whatever. And we did all of the Indian things, temple. I did dance. I didn't ever like I wasn't allowed to date or have boy guy friends. But like it was weird. Like as long as I was like we were studying. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like they didn't like that was, you know, I was like, you realize. But I didn't do anything like I didn't kiss a boy until I was like a senior in high school. Like I was so deathly scared of my parents. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
29:16 - 29:16
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
29:16 - 29:16
Yeah.

Apurva:
29:17 - 29:22
Yeah. Yeah. Like I like because my cousin, she got married to a Hispanic guy.

Speaker 1:
29:22 - 29:22
Oh,

Speaker 1:
29:22 - 29:23
no.

Apurva:
29:23 - 29:24
Oh, like,

Matt Handy:
29:24 - 29:27
it was a big deal. Huge.

Apurva:
29:28 - 29:52
Family scandal. My dad was asked to walk her down the aisle, and he was like, no. No. Like, because her father, their father passed away when they were, like. Little. Little. Kind of little. So, but yeah, it was like, but it was the best wedding I have ever been to.

Matt Handy:
29:52 - 30:01
Dude, you guys have like, I think an Indian guy has like the record for not only the longest, but the most expensive wedding ever.

Speaker 1:
30:01 - 30:02
Oh,

Speaker 1:
30:02 - 30:02
yeah.

Matt Handy:
30:03 - 30:04
And it was like seven months.

Apurva:
30:05 - 30:06
Yeah. What's the rich guys in India?

Matt Handy:
30:07 - 30:08
The prince something. Yeah.

Apurva:
30:08 - 30:14
Whatever. They own the whole Reliant, the electricity company, the whole thing in India.

Matt Handy:
30:14 - 30:26
Yeah. He was getting Lamborghinis like by the daily. and he was giving away APs like as wedding gifts. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
30:27 - 30:27
I just,

Speaker 1:
30:27 - 30:28
yeah.

Matt Handy:
30:28 - 30:31
He was giving like quarter million dollar watches away to his friends. That's crazy.

Speaker 1:
30:32 - 30:32
Isn't it?

Speaker 1:
30:33 - 30:33
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
30:33 - 30:35
Like seven month long wedding.

Apurva:
30:35 - 30:55
Yeah. My husband is a very white boy from Florida. Oh, you married outside too? No, I didn't. I'm the biggest rebellious in my whole family. Yeah. Like it was an interesting. They tried to do the whole arranged marriage with me. Here?

Speaker 1:
30:55 - 30:56
Yeah.

Apurva:
30:56 - 31:28
Well, so right now, like the way that the marriages are going, it's not really as arranged. It's more like blind dates. So like, you know, they call them biodatas and it's a horrible name. So it's like basically it's your resume. Like, you know, where did you. Biodatas? Biodatas. That's what it's called. Wow. Yeah. So now there's apps and like there's like Shadi.com. What? Yeah. So, like, it's like dating apps. There's a show on Netflix. It's hilarious. Hold on, hold on. What's it called? The show on Netflix is called Indian Matchmaker. Yeah,

Matt Handy:
31:29 - 31:31
yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dude, you guys are so funny.

Apurva:
31:32 - 31:52
It's so ridiculous. Yeah, that one's a little over the top, but, you know, we do have those. So, like, they tried. They really did. Like, I met a Harvard guy. I met, like, this other guy. I was like, oh, nice. He's got, like, a nice little Beamer M5. But then they met my family. They were like, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
31:52 - 31:53
Yeah.

Apurva:
31:53 - 32:28
The Harvard guy was so funny because like my uncle, he was one of the my families are like complete opposite. Like my dad's side and my mom's. My dad's side is like freedom fighters. They were like Gandhi. Right. Like my my uncle like was in jail with Gandhi. Like it was. And I mean, he was like one of the county judges. Like, you know, the judge court. He was all about Indian independence. And then you got my mom's side who was straight up British. Like my grandfather.

Matt Handy:
32:28 - 32:30
Oh, wow. They got the accent and everything?

Apurva:
32:30 - 32:32
My grandfather was like,

Speaker 1:
32:32 - 32:32
oh,

Speaker 1:
32:32 - 32:32
my God,

Apurva:
32:33 - 33:12
America is the greatest. We love Britain. And he became a dermatologist. And his father was a police officer and all of this stuff. And so he was very strict. He had the five kids. And he had a love marriage. Wow. I know. My grandfather, he got married to my grandmother. He was like, I was sitting there and he was so funny. He was like, I was sitting there in a corner at some Indian party and reading my medical book. And I put my book down and I gave a furtive look. And I saw your grandmother.

Apurva:
33:13 - 33:48
And she was like 15, 16 years old, something like that. How old was he? I think he was 20, 21, something like that. And he was taking care of all of his brothers. His parents died. And so they weren't allowed to date, right? So, like, my grandmother's older brother, they would go to movies. And then, like, my grandmother's brother never, like, let her be alone with him. But then finally, like, after, like, five months or something, they got married.

Apurva:
33:48 - 34:21
and I was like wow and then my a furtive look and so every time I hear that word I'm like oh man you rest in peace like I love you dude it's so funny JFK was like big like oh yeah I think the whole country like cried oh yeah and so when my dad was living in America it was like oh yeah I have to send my daughter to America and then the two boys he had two boys my uncles they became doctors like everybody's a doctor So did they all like take that test? The USMLE, yeah.

Matt Handy:
34:21 - 34:23
USMLE, that's what it's called. What does it stand for?

Apurva:
34:24 - 34:26
I don't know. United States Medical Licensing.

Matt Handy:
34:27 - 34:29
No, no, no, no, no, no,

Speaker 1:
34:29 - 34:29
no.

Matt Handy:
34:29 - 34:40
That's what's pretty cool. I don't think that's right though. It might be. But I'm talking about like in high school in India, you like get this test and it like basically tells you what you're allowed to do.

Apurva:
34:40 - 34:42
Oh, yeah. They did number one and everything.

Matt Handy:
34:42 - 34:46
There was no such thing as number two. So they could like do whatever they wanted. Yeah,

Apurva:
34:46 - 34:49
apparently my mom has a degree in psychology, and I'm like, how?

Speaker 1:
34:50 - 34:50
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
34:51 - 34:51
Like,

Apurva:
34:51 - 34:53
where is that from?

Speaker 1:
34:54 - 34:54
Yeah.

Apurva:
34:56 - 35:04
So, yeah, so, like, they kind of met. My parents met-ish. Like, so my mom went to college with my dad's youngest sister.

Speaker 1:
35:04 - 35:05
Okay.

Apurva:
35:05 - 35:12
So then that's kind of how the whole, like, arranged marriage kind of, you know, happened. So somebody that knows somebody, but, yeah.

Matt Handy:
35:13 - 35:15
And that's, like, a thing over there, right? Yeah.

Apurva:
35:15 - 35:20
It used to be. It's not as prevalent as it was back in the day.

Matt Handy:
35:20 - 35:21
And they did cows, right?

Apurva:
35:23 - 35:25
I don't know. We always did gold.

Matt Handy:
35:26 - 35:28
Did you ever see The King and I?

Speaker 1:
35:28 - 35:29
Yes.

Matt Handy:
35:29 - 35:32
Okay. That was like when I was like a little kid. Yeah, with Julie.

Speaker 1:
35:32 - 35:32
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
35:33 - 35:34
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
35:34 - 35:34
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
35:34 - 35:34
Yeah.

Apurva:
35:35 - 35:59
But it wasn't quite like that. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, like in India, it's kind of weird. Like you're not allowed to know if you're going to have a boy or girl. Really? Like when you're. Why? Because they would kill the girls. Like as soon as the baby was born and it was a girl, like they would kill the girl. Why? Because then they have to pay the dowry.

Speaker 1:
36:00 - 36:01
Holy shit.

Apurva:
36:01 - 36:05
Yeah. So it's still like that in villages. So what was funny is like my.

Matt Handy:
36:05 - 36:07
But they'll still kill the girl?

Apurva:
36:07 - 36:13
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because they can use the little boy to work in the fields and panhandle.

Matt Handy:
36:14 - 36:17
Did that ever cause like a disruption in like the ratios?

Speaker 1:
36:18 - 36:19
I'm sure.

Matt Handy:
36:19 - 36:22
I don't know what the statistics are. Well, it's like the most populous country.

Apurva:
36:23 - 36:37
Yeah, it's like literally over a billion people. Yeah. Like less than the state of Texas. No way. Yeah, it's small. Really? Yeah. India by train is, we took the train. The train's really pretty there.

Matt Handy:
36:38 - 36:40
It's the Orient Express, right?

Speaker 1:
36:41 - 36:41
No.

Speaker 1:
36:42 - 36:43
That's not that one?

Apurva:
36:43 - 36:43
No.

Matt Handy:
36:43 - 36:45
There's like a really famous train in India.

Apurva:
36:45 - 36:53
I think it might be. It's probably one of the rivers named.

Speaker 1:
36:53 - 36:56
Like there's the Godavari River or something like that.

Apurva:
36:56 - 36:58
That I remember taking. Wait, wait.

Matt Handy:
36:58 - 37:04
Punjab? Is Punjab on that line? I'm pretty sure it's the Orient Express. I don't know. I could be very wrong though.

Apurva:
37:04 - 37:06
Orient Express sounds like China or something.

Matt Handy:
37:06 - 37:12
I know it sounds like it, but I think it goes like up through the mountains.

Apurva:
37:13 - 37:17
Possibly. There might be one like going through the Himalayas or something like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
37:18 - 37:19
You know what I'm going to do?

Matt Handy:
37:20 - 37:21
I'm going to ask Chad GPT. I know.

Apurva:
37:21 - 37:22
I was like, Chad GPT it.

Speaker 1:
37:24 - 37:24
Okay.

Speaker 1:
37:25 - 37:25
Keep going.

Apurva:
37:27 - 37:46
Anyways. Yeah. I go squirrel off. I'm so ADD sometimes. Oh, you're good. Yeah. So graduated college. I mean, high school. And then I had a choice to be like everybody else at LSA, go to UT, or I got a scholarship to go to William & Mary in Virginia,

Matt Handy:
37:46 - 37:56
which is— The Concan Railway. And it's called the Rajdhani Express.

Apurva:
37:58 - 37:59
R-A-D?

Matt Handy:
38:00 - 38:01
R-A-J-D. Raj.

Speaker 1:
38:02 - 38:02
Okay.

Speaker 1:
38:03 - 38:04
Rajhani.

Speaker 1:
38:05 - 38:05
Rajhani.

Apurva:
38:11 - 38:19
Oh, Rajdhani Express. Yeah, so that's up north. Oh, that would be pretty. The Himalayan Queen. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
38:20 - 38:20
Yeah.

Apurva:
38:21 - 38:22
Not down there.

Speaker 1:
38:22 - 38:23
Not down in the south.

Speaker 1:
38:24 - 38:24
It's hot.

Speaker 1:
38:25 - 38:26
Oh,

Speaker 1:
38:26 - 38:26
yeah.

Apurva:
38:26 - 38:34
It's like super humid there, right? It is so gross. And the bugs are like... I still have mosquito bites from when I was little.

Matt Handy:
38:34 - 38:36
You still have them? How often do you go back?

Apurva:
38:37 - 38:44
I haven't gone back since my grandmother passed away. So that was like six years ago, maybe seven years ago.

Matt Handy:
38:45 - 38:55
So these trains, they're like the ones that you would see like where they like. On Mission Impossible? No, you would picture like them having like a ballroom in it. Yeah. You know, like.

Apurva:
38:56 - 38:57
I want to do the Canada one.

Matt Handy:
38:57 - 39:10
Yeah. That's the bucket list. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. There's another one. Which one is it? I think it's actually a – it's an Amtrak train line.

Speaker 1:
39:10 - 39:10
Mm-hmm.

Matt Handy:
39:11 - 39:19
And it like takes you across the top of the United States. I don't know what it's called. I don't know. Anyways.

Speaker 1:
39:20 - 39:21
But yeah,

Matt Handy:
39:21 - 39:36
there's like – it's interesting because like nobody really takes trains for those kinds of – people still do. They do. But it's like not really a heard of thing anymore. Whereas like in the 1800s, 1700s, that was like the thing. Yeah.

Apurva:
39:38 - 40:12
So like when we would go to India, like now everybody just flies everywhere. But I was like, I loved because you had an AC cart and then you had a non-AC cart on the train. So the poor people basically were in the non-AC. Yeah. But I love the non-AC. But I did not like the toilets because you literally were pooping on the train track. Yeah. Like there's no like flushing system. You can see. Yeah. I'm like, that's scary. Or they had the little, you know, the plain old sums. They'd be like,

Apurva:
40:12 - 40:23
oh, you have the American one or you have the not the whole one. It's crazy. I know. But then the AC one was so cold. You're like, okay. And then like they would get so mad if you like open the door.

Speaker 1:
40:24 - 40:24
Oh,

Speaker 1:
40:24 - 40:24
yeah.

Apurva:
40:24 - 40:27
Like I just need some warmth. It's really cold.

Matt Handy:
40:27 - 40:30
How old were you when you first started like traveling that way?

Apurva:
40:31 - 40:48
Oh, well, I think the first time I went, I don't remember. I was like three or four months old. My mom just like left me, let me go with my dad. And then my grandfather was so mad and he just took me and kidnapped me for like three months until my dad brought me back home.

Speaker 1:
40:48 - 40:49
That's funny.

Speaker 1:
40:49 - 40:49
Exactly.

Matt Handy:
40:50 - 40:54
Yeah. Okay. So what was like junior high and high school like? Because you went here.

Apurva:
40:54 - 41:04
Yeah. So I went to Albright Middle School, Albright, Albright. It was weird because like being Indian was weird at the time.

Matt Handy:
41:04 - 41:06
Isn't there like a big Indian population there though?

Apurva:
41:08 - 41:09
Not when I went there. Oh, no, that's Asian.

Matt Handy:
41:10 - 41:12
There's like a lot of Asians in Sugar Land, right?

Apurva:
41:12 - 41:48
Well, I went to Alief. So I was and yeah. So you made that drive every day? No, no. We went to Sugar Land like after I graduated high school. My brother was in seventh grade, so I think we went in 2001, 2002 over there when Sugarloin was being built. Yeah, no, I went to Albright, and then, yeah, it was, I mean, I was the Indian girl. There was a few of us, and then there were some Asian people. We were all in the honors classes, and there was no other. We weren't allowed to be in regular classes.

Apurva:
41:49 - 42:28
Yeah, for sure. Same thing when I went to L-Sick. It was like 50 of us that were just rotated in the same classes, and everybody had crushes on each other. I think my first boyfriend, his name was Neeraj, but we never kissed or anything. We would talk on the AIM. How old are you? So I started school. I'm 43 now. I'll be 43 next week. But I started school when I was – I started kindergarten when I was three. So by the time I graduated high school, I was 16. You did that math really well.

Matt Handy:
42:30 - 42:41
Yeah. There was an Indian girl that went to like not our high school but the one – What high school did you go to? I didn't – I grew up in San Diego, California. But she was like this punk rock girl.

Matt Handy:
42:41 - 43:09
and like her she ended up like getting kicked out because of like her style you know and like her parents kicked her out and then she ended up living like with her best friend and it was like this whole thing she had pet rats and like in high school a bunch of my friends at least we were all like tattooed in high school and she had this giant rat tattoo like on her arm and I don't remember her name but I'm sure my brother does that's weird Yeah.

Apurva:
43:11 - 43:52
I don't know about that one. But, yeah, so it was whatever. High school was just high school. Like I didn't do anything bad. My first technical boyfriend was – my first kiss was with the Vietnamese guy. I'm Vietnamese. Yeah. His name was Huy. He's a lawyer now. Sorry, Huy, if you're watching. Yeah. So we went out for a month until he cheated or something happened. High school. I know. I laugh because my stepson, he's in high school, so he tells me some of the drama. And I'm like, oh, you're going to miss this one day.

Matt Handy:
43:53 - 43:55
Yeah, or not. Or not,

Speaker 1:
43:55 - 43:55
yeah.

Matt Handy:
43:56 - 44:05
I haven't gone to a single reunion. Neither have I. It's funny. Dr. Shaw and I were talking about it. He went to his 30-year reunion recently. Oh,

Speaker 1:
44:05 - 44:05
wow.

Matt Handy:
44:05 - 44:15
Like within the last couple of years. And I was telling him like, I'll never go to a reunion because I graduated from a juvenile court correctional school.

Apurva:
44:18 - 44:20
So you were a troublemaker from the beginning.

Matt Handy:
44:20 - 44:25
There was seven of us that graduated. And I think four of them went straight to prison.

Apurva:
44:26 - 44:42
I know. I was thinking like whenever I said, I'm like, man, by the time I was 31 and I sobered up, it was like my biggest accomplishment was graduating rehab three times like in high school. Like that was it. Like I had nothing. I was so messed up.

Matt Handy:
44:42 - 44:48
That's crazy. So you got, okay, let's get there. Where did you like really start fucking up?

Apurva:
44:48 - 44:56
So I went to William & Mary and then I really started liking to drink. Because, like, I went there basically, like, because I didn't have parents.

Matt Handy:
44:57 - 44:58
Is that the girls?

Apurva:
44:59 - 45:31
No, it was a boy and girl. Okay. Yeah. So William and Mary was, like, where Thomas Jefferson went to school. What? Yeah. So they have a Colonial Williamsburg where you can, like, go out and, like— What state is this in? Virginia. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just, like, itty-bitty town. They had one Indian restaurant. And then—they didn't even have a movie theater, like, a nice movie theater. You had to drive 40 minutes. Wow. That's a new point. They didn't have an airport. There was no airport. But we had a really good time there.

Speaker 1:
45:32 - 45:32
Yeah,

Apurva:
45:32 - 46:06
there was nothing to do. There was nothing to do. So we studied hard and we partied hard. And it was like I drank on the weekends. I didn't know how to drink because my first time getting drunk was I think New Year's in high school. And that was not very pleasant. experience, but I loved to drink. Yeah. I was like, okay, let's just not drink that much and be all emotional. And, you know, it was like ridiculous. Like one of our friends ended up on Memorial Street,

Apurva:
46:06 - 46:31
like just walking and it was raining and it was so emotional. Like everybody was cheating on everybody. Like everybody had feelings for everybody. And I was like, oh my God. We were at some motel on Highway 6. It was hilarious. And I was like, oh, my God. But I was like, and then we mixed way too much alcohol. And then we just all, everybody threw up everywhere by the end of the night.

Matt Handy:
46:32 - 46:35
Was this like everybody's first time drinking? Basically. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Apurva:
46:36 - 47:08
I mean, we never drank like as, we had like a little group of us, right, that we hung out. But we never drank. We just played video games. And they played, what is that, StarCraft? We're just a bunch of nerds. I liked, what is the Super? Atari, Super Nintendo. Super Nintendo. Yeah, like NES. Bomberman. We loved some Bomberman. That was like the excitement that we did. That's so funny. And then ate or drank all the Star Snow ice and like the boba and stuff before it became like all sorts of crazy.

Speaker 1:
47:08 - 47:08
Yeah.

Apurva:
47:09 - 47:11
Yeah. I'm like, why is it $7 for a boba?

Matt Handy:
47:11 - 47:23
Dude, yeah. It's ridiculous. Yeah, I had a friend in high school. His name was Kevin Wu, and his parents owned a boba, like a boba shop. It was like the first one that I had ever seen.

Apurva:
47:24 - 47:27
Oh, and they probably did so good. Oh,

Matt Handy:
47:27 - 47:30
yeah. Well, okay, so across the street from their shop was a high school.

Speaker 1:
47:31 - 47:31
Oh.

Speaker 1:
47:32 - 47:32
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
47:32 - 47:32
Yep.

Speaker 1:
47:33 - 47:33
Done.

Matt Handy:
47:33 - 47:34
Done. Winner. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
47:35 - 47:35
Winner,

Speaker 1:
47:35 - 47:35
winner.

Matt Handy:
47:36 - 47:41
And so we would go, we played water polo together. And so like the whole team would like go over there and just like hanging out. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
47:42 - 47:42
Oh,

Speaker 1:
47:42 - 47:42
yeah.

Matt Handy:
47:42 - 47:50
And we went to a different school than the school that was across the street. And so it was like the spot that everybody would meet to fight.

Apurva:
47:50 - 48:18
Yeah. Yeah. Ours was, there was a Vietnamese pool hall. We would walk to, it was $4 an hour for pool. But like, that's where we would all just, everybody would start like ganging up on each other. And I was like, what are we like? Okay, cool. Yeah. And then you had the cool cars and everybody like had to outdo. Like, we're like 16, 17 years old. Like, we're not supposed to be. Now I'm like, we're not supposed to be driving like this.

Speaker 1:
48:19 - 48:19
Oh,

Speaker 1:
48:19 - 48:19
yeah.

Apurva:
48:20 - 48:34
Yeah, like Westheimer, we used to like go there. And yeah, it was crazy. But yeah, but I mean, I never drank. Like, it was not a thing that we did. We just, I smoked, you know, one time I smoked some pot, but that was.

Speaker 1:
48:34 - 48:34
Ever?

Apurva:
48:35 - 48:36
No. Oh, okay.

Matt Handy:
48:37 - 48:39
You get into snorting method work.

Speaker 1:
48:39 - 48:39
Yeah.

Apurva:
48:40 - 49:03
So I did smoke some pot at one point in my life. Yeah. So then we went and then, you know, I went to William & Mary and we just and then I ended up getting kicked out. Not because I was drinking, but because I didn't have very good grades and was on probation. And, you know.

Matt Handy:
49:03 - 49:04
How'd you end up on probation?

Speaker 1:
49:05 - 49:06
Or DUIs?

Apurva:
49:06 - 49:08
No, no, no. I was on academic probation.

Speaker 1:
49:09 - 49:09
Oh.

Apurva:
49:09 - 49:38
But I should have known that I probably had a problem with drinking. I mean, normal people would have stopped drinking, but I did not. So, like, we had a party, and I didn't eat, and we was just done with finals and everything. And so, like, I had done I don't even know how many shots. Like, we were at some frat party. And I really don't remember the whole night. I just remember waking up in a hospital.

Matt Handy:
49:39 - 49:43
You know how you just said like normal people would have stopped? Yeah. I don't think that's true.

Apurva:
49:44 - 49:46
Oh, when you think they're almost raped? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
49:47 - 49:48
I am.

Matt Handy:
49:48 - 49:50
Yeah, that part maybe.

Apurva:
49:50 - 50:34
Yeah, like I was still like a virgin and I don't remember anything. But apparently I started making out with some guy named Billy Nipper. Sexy. And apparently he was like 43 years, 45 years old. I'm 16. Barely 17. I know I'm not 18 because they call my parents. Oh, my gosh. And apparently this guy just got out of jail for sexual assault. And he was just roaming around the campus. And thank God my RA found me just walking to my dorm room. And so she got me there. And she called the paramedics after a security pick. He was following me apparently.

Matt Handy:
50:34 - 50:35
Why do you remember his name?

Apurva:
50:36 - 50:40
Because that's what they told me. And I was like, what kind of name is that?

Matt Handy:
50:40 - 50:41
Billy Nipper.

Apurva:
50:43 - 50:45
Why would you name your kid that? Dude,

Matt Handy:
50:45 - 50:48
that is like a straight up predator name. Exactly.

Speaker 1:
50:49 - 50:49
Billy Nipper.

Apurva:
50:49 - 51:12
And then when they're like, do you know who this Billy? Because I said it like 16 times to me. And then they were like, well, we need to call your parents because you're underage. And I was like, this is before cell phones or anything. So I just kept giving like fake numbers. So I was like, it's 2-8-1-4-9-3-9-1-2-3. Like, I just make them. They're like, that's not the number. Give us the number. I'm like, I don't want to.

Speaker 1:
51:13 - 51:15
Did you get in trouble with your parents?

Speaker 1:
51:15 - 51:15
Oh,

Speaker 1:
51:15 - 51:15
yeah.

Speaker 1:
51:16 - 51:16
Oh,

Apurva:
51:16 - 51:40
yeah. Oh, yeah. They were. I mean, I was so sheltered that, like, my first haircut was my senior year of high school. So my hair was, like, daddy hair. That's so cool, though. No. Not when you're, like, trying to be cute. I was not allowed to wear jeans. I was only allowed to wear skirts and dresses. I think guys like that more than you guys think.

Speaker 1:
51:40 - 51:40
Yeah.

Apurva:
51:41 - 52:02
None of the guys I liked liked to be back. So I was like with the big glasses. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. And awkward. And that's why I like drinking because like I just. Then you weren't awkward? I didn't feel as awkward even though I probably was awkward. But I didn't think I was awkward. So. That's all that matters. That's all that matters is what I thought.

Speaker 1:
52:03 - 52:03
So,

Apurva:
52:03 - 52:03
yeah.

Speaker 1:
52:07 - 52:07
Then,

Apurva:
52:07 - 52:20
yeah, I was like, I'm not going to ever drink. And I did that whole thing. And then I ended up getting kicked out of William & Mary for grades. But I was like, the truth was that, like, I did not study as hard as everybody else.

Matt Handy:
52:20 - 52:23
I just drank. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You got an A in drinking.

Apurva:
52:23 - 52:36
Yes. And you got an F in school. Mm-hmm. And I was supposed to be a doctor. Like, because being Indian, like, you only have three professions. Doctors. Now it's four, but it's doctor's, engineer's, lawyer. Yeah. Now it's IT.

Matt Handy:
52:36 - 52:43
You can add the IT or computer science or whatever. Which is such a BS. Computer science is so funny.

Apurva:
52:44 - 52:46
I know. My husband is a computer scientist.

Matt Handy:
52:46 - 52:47
That's so funny.

Apurva:
52:47 - 52:53
That's why it's not so funny. You're white. You're not supposed to have a computer science major.

Matt Handy:
52:54 - 53:05
Because there are real computer engineers, and then there's people who qualify as computer scientists. And it's like, dude, you don't actually do anything. Yeah.

Apurva:
53:05 - 53:21
I know. So, yeah. That's funny. I know. It's like, I can't believe I married a white computer engineer. I don't even know what he does. How long ago did you get married? I just realized that we're going to be married five years in May.

Matt Handy:
53:22 - 53:23
Five years. This is your first husband?

Speaker 1:
53:23 - 53:24
Yes.

Speaker 1:
53:25 - 53:25
Okay.

Apurva:
53:26 - 53:33
We met in AA. Okay. We are the AA couple. Yeah. We did.

Speaker 1:
53:34 - 53:34
Yeah.

Apurva:
53:35 - 54:09
We've been, we were best, we sobered up together. Oh. We grew up together, basically. Really? Yeah. Well, I mean, in the program. Oh, yeah. So, like, he's got 13. He just celebrated 13 years and I celebrated, I'm going to hopefully, you know, get 11 years, God willing. But, yeah, so he saw me. He like came – like we were friends. That's it. We were platonically friends for I don't even know, nine years. I moved, became a nurse and did all of this. And then one day he was like, oh,

Apurva:
54:09 - 54:22
if I sell this, I'm going to make like $13 million. I was like, well, if you make $13 million, I'm just going to quit my job and just marry you. And he was – and then he was like, well, if you just move to Houston, I would marry you. And I was like, wait, what?

Matt Handy:
54:23 - 54:25
What are you talking about? Where were you living?

Speaker 1:
54:25 - 54:25
College Station.

Speaker 1:
54:26 - 54:26
Oh.

Apurva:
54:26 - 54:38
Yeah. Not that it was some far, far away place. So I was like, oh. I was like, wait, are you serious? Like, and he was like, yeah. You didn't realize that? And I was like, no.

Speaker 1:
54:38 - 54:38
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
54:38 - 54:39
yeah.

Matt Handy:
54:40 - 54:42
Not a whole lot of social acumen there, huh?

Apurva:
54:42 - 54:49
No. It just, yeah. Because I was like, we, we've just, we've never, like, I had a crush on him at one point. And then.

Matt Handy:
54:50 - 54:56
I'm going to tell you something. And this is probably controversial. But men are not geared to have girls as friends.

Apurva:
54:57 - 54:58
I totally agree.

Matt Handy:
54:58 - 55:05
Yeah. It's not – if you have a guy that's a friend, you have a guy that's a potential suitor. That's really what it is.

Apurva:
55:06 - 55:19
Exactly. But like we were – he was trying to do – I'm his fourth wife. So if you – And his longest relationship. That's – And I'm the only one that he's been in a relationship with sober.

Speaker 1:
55:20 - 55:20
Oh.

Apurva:
55:20 - 55:28
So yeah. So like it was kind of like this. It just – we just slowly – because we're nervous. Like it's nerve wracking. No, for sure. You're sober, you know,

Matt Handy:
55:28 - 55:37
doing things. Have you seen that statistic that says if you get divorced twice, you are statistically likely to get married five times?

Apurva:
55:39 - 55:41
No, you have a lot of statistics in your brain.

Matt Handy:
55:41 - 55:51
Yeah. I mean, I talk about this shit a lot, I guess. But yeah, if you get divorced twice, you are statistically likely to get married five times.

Apurva:
55:52 - 55:55
Yeah. Well, hopefully he doesn't get married a fifth time. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
55:56 - 55:56
I mean,

Matt Handy:
55:56 - 56:03
you know, sobriety is like a pretty good safeguard for a lot of like not doing the same shit over.

Apurva:
56:03 - 56:07
Yeah. Not making the same mistakes over and over doing the same shit.

Matt Handy:
56:08 - 56:17
Did he do the like, so I always, this is a joke. This is a joke, guys. Okay. My first wife was Mexican.

Speaker 1:
56:17 - 56:18
Right.

Matt Handy:
56:18 - 56:22
My wife now is white. And I always tell her if we get a divorce, I'm going to marry a black chick.

Apurva:
56:23 - 56:59
So this is the funny part. So the first two marriages that he had, he barely remembers because he was extremely drunk. I think maybe they lasted, he doesn't even know, less than a year. And they were two white women. So then he ended up moving to Houston for a job. And then he met his third ex-wife, and she was Vietnamese. Oh, no. And then they had, well, they hooked up and then got pregnant. Pregnant. And then he did the right thing, you know, supposedly, and then married her.

Matt Handy:
57:00 - 57:01
That's such a funny term, he did the right thing.

Speaker 1:
57:02 - 57:02
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
57:02 - 57:05
It's probably, like, the fucking worst thing that he could have done. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
57:05 - 57:05
Yeah.

Apurva:
57:05 - 57:13
And so they were bare, like, so then, you know, of course, she had the baby. He's still drinking. Like, he was like, oh, well, you know, if I'm my dad, like, I'm going to, you know.

Matt Handy:
57:14 - 57:15
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I'll get sober now.

Apurva:
57:15 - 57:49
Yeah, that didn't work out. He ended up getting a third DWI. So then they got divorced. And then after he got divorced and he called her from jail and she was like, no, I don't think I'm going to pick you up. Maybe I'll get you later. Like, I got to go, you know, do something else. Yeah. Something. And he was like, wait, what? Like, I'm Richard. Like, you're supposed to come. I'm your husband. Yeah. And then I was kind of like, oh, shit, I don't have anybody in my life that's going to bail me out.

Speaker 1:
57:49 - 57:49
Yeah.

Apurva:
57:50 - 57:56
Kind of a thing. And then he ended up going to AA and, I mean, he was very angry when I met him.

Speaker 1:
57:58 - 57:58
That happens.

Speaker 1:
57:59 - 57:59
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
57:59 - 57:59
Like.

Speaker 1:
57:59 - 58:00
That happens.

Speaker 1:
58:00 - 58:01
A whole different level.

Matt Handy:
58:02 - 58:03
Well, so like.

Apurva:
58:03 - 58:05
Okay. So, yeah. Let's go back because that's a whole.

Matt Handy:
58:06 - 58:09
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I won't even say what I was going to say.

Speaker 1:
58:10 - 58:10
Oh,

Speaker 1:
58:10 - 58:10
go ahead.

Speaker 1:
58:10 - 58:10
Go ahead.

Matt Handy:
58:10 - 58:12
No, no, no. I mean, okay. I'm going to say it anyway.

Speaker 1:
58:13 - 58:13
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
58:15 - 58:15
Nice.

Speaker 1:
58:17 - 58:18
First of all,

Speaker 1:
58:18 - 58:18
like,

Matt Handy:
58:19 - 58:21
did he have money when he got divorced?

Speaker 1:
58:22 - 58:22
Yes.

Speaker 1:
58:22 - 58:22
He didn't after.

Matt Handy:
58:23 - 58:26
No. Okay. So that's a really good reason to be mad.

Speaker 1:
58:27 - 58:27
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
58:27 - 58:30
And then alcohol just makes people fucking angry.

Speaker 1:
58:30 - 58:31
Yeah.

Apurva:
58:32 - 58:33
So we were going to say controversy.

Speaker 1:
58:34 - 58:34
Oh,

Speaker 1:
58:34 - 58:34
yeah.

Speaker 1:
58:35 - 58:36
Wait,

Speaker 1:
58:36 - 58:36
wait.

Matt Handy:
58:37 - 58:39
I said it already. That men are not. Oh,

Apurva:
58:39 - 58:40
yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
58:40 - 58:41
I mean.

Apurva:
58:41 - 58:43
I don't think that's controversial. I think that's very true.

Matt Handy:
58:44 - 58:57
No. I know it's true, but it's still controversial because what I think a lot of people say that like based on that statement, you're saying that either men have bad intentions or girls can't have guy friends.

Apurva:
58:58 - 59:11
I think I've had – I've always had guy friends. Of course. You're a girl. Girl. Right. But I – like even like now, like all of my guy friends, like most of them are married. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
59:11 - 59:14
And you guys are – it's the couples.

Apurva:
59:14 - 59:16
Yeah, and it's a different, but, like,

Matt Handy:
59:17 - 59:27
I don't know. Look, any guy friend that is there for you when you're going through shit, really it's,

Apurva:
59:27 - 59:36
they don't care. I don't, yeah, like, my guy friend has turned into be my husband that I went to. So I was like, well, I guess that makes sense.

Matt Handy:
59:36 - 59:42
And how many of your guy friends, like, growing up would it be, like, would have definitely hooked up with you? All of them.

Speaker 1:
59:43 - 59:44
All of them?

Apurva:
59:44 - 59:46
No, they always liked my Asian friends.

Matt Handy:
59:47 - 59:48
But if you said, hey.

Apurva:
59:48 - 59:54
They would talk to me because they wanted to get to know the other girl. That was high school.

Matt Handy:
59:55 - 01:00:01
Yeah. So what happens is they want to get at the Asian girl. But if that doesn't work out, there's this girl. Yeah. I mean,

Apurva:
01:00:01 - 01:00:04
I was always second. So that was also an issue.

Matt Handy:
01:00:05 - 01:00:05
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:00:08 - 01:00:39
Yeah. So I did. But, you know, growing up, like, being Indian, like, we had to show face, basically. Oh, yeah. Right? Like, you had to look—everything had to look good on the outside. Like, I was a lot bigger, like, weight-wise. And so, like, my mom, one time, she said—she has two daughters. And she looks at, like—I call her my arch enemy. But she looked at her, and she was like, God, I wish I had a daughter like her.

Speaker 1:
01:00:40 - 01:00:42
and I'm like really?

Matt Handy:
01:00:43 - 01:00:51
What is that? Is that India where they have that slapping sport? It's like called Kabut Kabul Kabut or something?

Apurva:
01:00:51 - 01:00:53
Oh Kabul yeah yeah yeah It is right?

Matt Handy:
01:00:53 - 01:01:02
Yeah yeah That's Indian right? Yeah Dude you guys have the crazy and cricket's like a big thing right? Huge Yeah Very interesting to me Yeah What are they doing?

Apurva:
01:01:03 - 01:01:08
I don't know I don't I really don't know I mean I'm so whitewashed like in a whole different way I mean,

Matt Handy:
01:01:08 - 01:01:18
I've watched hours of the sport. I can't figure it out. And it's all in Indian. They can't like, you know, and it's like they jump around and slap each other. Yeah.

Apurva:
01:01:19 - 01:01:22
You're trying to dodge like the slaps or something. Yeah,

Matt Handy:
01:01:22 - 01:01:26
but how do they score points? That part I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. Yeah,

Apurva:
01:01:26 - 01:01:29
cricket I kind of understand, but not really.

Matt Handy:
01:01:29 - 01:01:33
Cricket's like a very close cousin to baseball, so I kind of get it. Yeah,

Apurva:
01:01:33 - 01:01:37
like you're trying to get the ball, like home run. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:01:38 - 01:01:41
Yeah, they throw the ball to you. You hit the ball as far as you can.

Apurva:
01:01:41 - 01:01:47
Yeah, and then you run. Yeah, and then you have the three wickets. So it's like three strikes kind of a thing.

Speaker 1:
01:01:47 - 01:01:47
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:01:48 - 01:01:48
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:01:48 - 01:02:07
I don't need to know Indian to get what's going on there. But the slap thing, there's like this guy. Okay. There's like this one guy. Yeah. He's in like all the videos. And he's just so good at this shit. He's like throwing people. I was explaining to Dr. Shah the other day.

Matt Handy:
01:02:07 - 01:02:32
do you remember like old like carnival footage or like cartoons where it was always like he was talking about how like indian guys were just historically like tall and skinny right and i was like actually like the freak carnival shows it would be like a their strong man was always an indian guy yeah they're like the tall like giant there's a very big villain in the indian movies He's passed away now,

Apurva:
01:02:32 - 01:02:46
but he had the, you know, the mustache. Great mustache. The eyeballs, like, when he would get mad, like, it would turn like, I mean, it was like somebody punched him, like, red. And, like, I was like, oh, my goodness. He was in Indiana Jones.

Matt Handy:
01:02:47 - 01:02:49
Oh. Yes. He was famous?

Speaker 1:
01:02:50 - 01:02:50
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:02:50 - 01:02:50
Like,

Speaker 1:
01:02:50 - 01:02:50
in India?

Speaker 1:
01:02:51 - 01:02:51
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:02:51 - 01:02:58
Because I know that India has, like, the Bollywood thing. Yeah. Right? And, dude, that is a whole other thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:02:59 - 01:02:59
But,

Matt Handy:
01:03:00 - 01:03:11
I mean, it makes sense because it is the most populous region. It's ridiculous. And there's a lot of money. There's a lot of wealth. I don't know if a lot of wealthy people are there.

Apurva:
01:03:11 - 01:03:13
It's you're either very rich or you're very poor.

Matt Handy:
01:03:13 - 01:03:13
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:03:14 - 01:03:19
That's, so, like, my family is very well off.

Speaker 1:
01:03:19 - 01:03:20
Not like,

Apurva:
01:03:20 - 01:03:26
you know, seven-month weddings and, you know, Lamborghinis everywhere. Yeah. You know.

Matt Handy:
01:03:26 - 01:03:29
That dude got gifted, like, a hundred Lamborghinis or something. It's ridiculous.

Apurva:
01:03:30 - 01:03:49
Like, it's just like, what, like, why? What are you going to do with it? Like, yeah, like, what is the purpose of that? Like, I don't know. I'm like, I think it pisses me off because it's like all the money that they spent on that wedding could have fed the entire country time seven. You know what I'm saying?

Matt Handy:
01:03:49 - 01:03:55
I saw like the end figure of what it cost. I don't remember what it was, but it was astronomical. It's ridiculous.

Apurva:
01:03:55 - 01:04:25
it was like I don't even know like how much that looks like let's look what was his name the girl's name is Radhika Merchant oh yeah I can spell that R-A-D-H-I-K-A what is the the kid's name he's like that plus he's like a fat yeah Anant Anant yeah Anant Anant 600 million dollars that's what I'm saying like you can feed the whole fucking world.

Matt Handy:
01:04:25 - 01:04:26
$600 million.

Apurva:
01:04:27 - 01:04:35
That is so crazy. And I don't even think that's the real number. Like, I think it's probably more. Probably. Like, that's sad that that's like a deduction.

Matt Handy:
01:04:36 - 01:04:41
Oh, look at this. Low-end estimates are $600 million. Yeah,

Speaker 1:
01:04:41 - 01:04:41
there we go.

Matt Handy:
01:04:41 - 01:04:54
The openly talked about number is a billion. I believe it. A billion. And so, it was probably a lot more. And look at all the celebrities that went. It was Justin Bieber, Rihanna, Katy Perry.

Apurva:
01:04:56 - 01:04:59
Bob Gates. What's his name? Bill Gates. Bill Gates. Oh, yeah,

Speaker 1:
01:04:59 - 01:04:59
yeah,

Matt Handy:
01:04:59 - 01:05:07
yeah. A bunch of politicians. The Rock was there. Like, a bunch of wrestlers were there. Yeah. A wrestler gave him a Lamborghini.

Apurva:
01:05:07 - 01:05:19
Like, I don't even understand what that, like. And then, like, Shah Rukh Khan, like, gifted him, like, a whole apartment in France or something. And I'm like, he can buy it. Like, what do you give, like, the most wealthiest kid?

Matt Handy:
01:05:21 - 01:05:44
It's funny because, like, I was by far was, like, not a rock star. But I knew, like, I still have friends. I have a friend right now that's on tour in Europe, right? I have, like, other friends that are part of, like, pretty big bands, right? And it was always so crazy to me how, like, they didn't ever have to pay for drugs. They just got, like, they have.

Apurva:
01:05:44 - 01:05:45
They gifted drugs.

Speaker 1:
01:05:46 - 01:05:46
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:05:46 - 01:05:49
And then here we are. We got a panhandle.

Matt Handy:
01:05:49 - 01:06:03
Actually, those guys, they didn't do drugs. But I had, like, the other friends that were still, like, really well-known, like, regionally and, like, across the U.S. and stuff. They always got, like, free drugs. And then I had to, like, always pay for it. It made me mad.

Speaker 1:
01:06:03 - 01:06:04
I know.

Speaker 1:
01:06:04 - 01:06:05
I had to go to the,

Speaker 1:
01:06:05 - 01:06:06
yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:06:07 - 01:06:09
So how'd you get into drugs? That's probably a...

Speaker 1:
01:06:12 - 01:06:12
So,

Apurva:
01:06:12 - 01:06:16
like any other stupid thing, like, I had a crush on a boy.

Speaker 1:
01:06:16 - 01:06:16
Oh.

Apurva:
01:06:18 - 01:06:19
Yeah. Was he Indian?

Speaker 1:
01:06:19 - 01:06:19
No.

Matt Handy:
01:06:20 - 01:06:25
That's where you went wrong. Yeah. It wasn't the drugs. It was dating outside of the culture.

Apurva:
01:06:26 - 01:06:29
So I met this guy named Ryan.

Speaker 1:
01:06:30 - 01:06:30
Oh,

Speaker 1:
01:06:30 - 01:06:30
man.

Matt Handy:
01:06:31 - 01:06:39
My best friend, his name was Ryan Maher, and he just died a couple years ago from a fentanyl overdose. It's always the Ryans. Yeah.

Apurva:
01:06:40 - 01:06:44
So we worked at Foley's together. Do you remember Foley's?

Matt Handy:
01:06:44 - 01:06:45
I'm not from here.

Apurva:
01:06:46 - 01:06:47
Well, it's now Macy's.

Speaker 1:
01:06:48 - 01:06:48
Oh.

Apurva:
01:06:49 - 01:06:54
So Macy's bought out all of the Foley's a long time ago. But I don't know if Foley's was just in Houston or not.

Matt Handy:
01:06:55 - 01:07:00
I never heard of Foley's. We had like JCPenney's and I think that. Yeah,

Apurva:
01:07:00 - 01:07:03
it's like that, like a little bit higher than JCPenney.

Matt Handy:
01:07:03 - 01:07:04
Okay, department store.

Apurva:
01:07:05 - 01:07:09
Mervin's. Yeah. Oh, I remember Mervin's. That was our store.

Speaker 1:
01:07:09 - 01:07:10
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:07:11 - 01:07:43
Yeah, so I worked, like that was my first job. So I worked as a float pool and then like I just – I met him and I was like – What is a float pool? Where you just like go in different departments. Oh, okay. Like in the store. Literally like a floater. Yeah. So then I felt – me and him started on the same day. Doing drugs? Oh. No, no, no. He was already a drug addict. And then he worked in the women's shoes. And so I, you know, was like, well, I just only want to work women's shoes.

Apurva:
01:07:44 - 01:08:01
And so then we got to talking. And then I started smoking cigarettes because he was smoking cigarettes. And then we started hanging out. And then we were drinking a lot. And then one New Year's, he was like, do you want to do some cocaine? I was like, yeah, I'm not going to get addicted to it.

Speaker 1:
01:08:02 - 01:08:02
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:08:03 - 01:08:04
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:08:05 - 01:08:09
So then I ended up, we ended up selling cocaine together.

Speaker 1:
01:08:10 - 01:08:10
That's a.

Speaker 1:
01:08:11 - 01:08:11
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:08:12 - 01:08:20
Yeah. Yeah. Um, we sold cocaine. We went to like all of like the strip clubs. So I would like go. Oh, fun. I know.

Matt Handy:
01:08:21 - 01:08:27
I've never been to a strip club. What? I've never been to a strip club. I discovered prostitutes like really young.

Apurva:
01:08:29 - 01:08:30
So why the fuck go to a strip club?

Matt Handy:
01:08:31 - 01:08:32
Yeah. Waste of time and money.

Apurva:
01:08:33 - 01:08:40
You just went straight to the chain. Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. I didn't go that far, but, um.

Matt Handy:
01:08:40 - 01:08:41
I mean, you wouldn't have to.

Speaker 1:
01:08:42 - 01:08:42
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:08:42 - 01:08:50
So we were, yeah, so we, it was like this little crew of us that worked at Foley's during the day and then sold drugs at night. It was really weird.

Speaker 1:
01:08:51 - 01:08:51
That's funny.

Apurva:
01:08:52 - 01:08:58
So it was me, this black guy named Mark, and then my little, I mean, he was white, like white, white Ryan.

Matt Handy:
01:08:58 - 01:08:59
Like Wonder Red White? Was he a wigger?

Speaker 1:
01:09:00 - 01:09:00
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:09:01 - 01:09:07
Like, I was like, oh, my God. And then I still have his, yeah, picture somewhere. Oh,

Speaker 1:
01:09:07 - 01:09:08
I want to see it.

Apurva:
01:09:08 - 01:09:16
Yeah, I'll have to text it to you. It's at my parents' house. or my house or whatever it's called. Yeah, I'm living with my parents, so that's always...

Matt Handy:
01:09:16 - 01:09:17
That's fun.

Speaker 1:
01:09:19 - 01:09:20
Great food.

Speaker 1:
01:09:21 - 01:09:21
Probably great food.

Matt Handy:
01:09:22 - 01:09:24
Does she ever make tiki masala?

Speaker 1:
01:09:25 - 01:09:25
No.

Apurva:
01:09:25 - 01:09:33
We're vegetarian. Well, she's vegetarian. I'm not, but... Yeah. I mean, I rebelled the whole...

Matt Handy:
01:09:33 - 01:09:42
I think that it's like... There's like this thing... I've never met an Indian who then ended up an addict and stayed a vegetarian. It's almost like that shit goes out the window. Yeah.

Apurva:
01:09:43 - 01:09:53
That's not even important anymore. I'm just trying to eat a chicken sandwich from McDonald's. Like, $1.36. Can I add cheese? Like, that's where I was at one point in my life.

Speaker 1:
01:09:53 - 01:09:54
Like,

Apurva:
01:09:54 - 01:10:04
can I afford the McDonald's spicy chicken sandwich? Oh, I have 37 cents. Oh, I can. It was $1.37. I remember that.

Matt Handy:
01:10:04 - 01:10:06
The double cheeseburger was $1.37. Yeah.

Apurva:
01:10:07 - 01:10:13
So it was on the dollar menu. I like the chicken. And then I was like, don't put that much mayonnaise on it. And then I was like, I need cheese. Dude, they flood,

Matt Handy:
01:10:13 - 01:10:14
though. I just had one yesterday.

Apurva:
01:10:15 - 01:10:20
Yeah. So it's really hard for me to eat one of those because it just brings me back to my homeless days.

Matt Handy:
01:10:21 - 01:10:26
So you know what? Me and my—so my wife, we're having a kid tomorrow. Yeah. We were homeless together.

Apurva:
01:10:27 - 01:10:27
Wow.

Matt Handy:
01:10:28 - 01:10:42
Yeah. And you know what we lived off of? We would eat—we would get a pint of Ben & Jerry's in the morning and an apple pie. And then we would just eat that all day. We'd eat the ice cream in the morning and then the pie all day.

Speaker 1:
01:10:42 - 01:10:42
Wow.

Speaker 1:
01:10:43 - 01:10:43
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:10:43 - 01:10:44
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:10:44 - 01:10:49
I wasn't home. Like, I mean, I guess I was. I don't know. I lived in hotels. Oh, no. We were,

Matt Handy:
01:10:49 - 01:10:51
like, living under a bridge.

Apurva:
01:10:51 - 01:10:54
No. Yeah. Luckily, we didn't get that far, but yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:10:54 - 01:10:56
Yeah, but it's, so our thing was.

Apurva:
01:10:57 - 01:11:00
I don't know. Maybe. I don't, that would have been any better. I don't know.

Matt Handy:
01:11:00 - 01:11:29
No. Well, not here. Texas is, I could never do it here. Like, drugs were basically legal in San Diego. Like you couldn't get arrested for personal use. You know, like they might take it and ticket you. But most of the time they just took it if you got caught with it. But we got kicked out like 14 of 14 apartments and houses in like two years. And she was just so sick of it. I always got kicked out.

Apurva:
01:11:29 - 01:11:31
How long have you and your girl been together?

Matt Handy:
01:11:32 - 01:12:06
It will be nine years in May. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's crazy. But we had a discussion. We were like, we already hung out solely, exclusively with homeless people. Like that was like our friend group was homeless people. And we were always down there. And it turned into this like we would have an apartment and we would like be out downtown for like a couple days and then we'd go home and shower and sleep. And then we would like get kicked out and we'd find another place.

Matt Handy:
01:12:06 - 01:12:40
And it was like on average two grand. There was like a couple of places. It was like $2,400 a month. And I was finally like – like I just keep getting us kicked out. We keep losing deposits. Like it's – because there was one house like every inch of every wall was covered in graffiti. There was like a whole missing part of the wall because she locked herself in the room. And I like kicked the wall down to like get in. Yeah, like windows would be gone. Front door didn't lock anymore.

Matt Handy:
01:12:40 - 01:12:56
Like it was just a mess. And so finally it was like, why are we even doing this? Like why do we keep trying to do this? And she was like, because I need to shower. So I was like, okay, how about we be homeless and we can go like stay at hotels. No, we could stay at hotels like a couple times a week.

Speaker 1:
01:12:57 - 01:12:57
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:12:57 - 01:13:07
Because we weren't sleeping anyway. Like we were just out there running amok. And so she was like, okay. And then like within a month, there was no more hotels. Like we were just full-time homeless.

Speaker 1:
01:13:08 - 01:13:08
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:13:09 - 01:13:16
But it was like very, very, it's like a whole world unto itself, you know?

Speaker 1:
01:13:16 - 01:13:17
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:13:17 - 01:13:39
And she says it even like she talks about it now where it's like the level of freedom. People don't understand like the level of freedom that comes with being a homeless drug addict. There is no connection to society. There's no responsibilities. The only thing that you have to worry about is like, which if you have like, if you're selling drugs or like if you have a hustle, there is no worry about it. And so it's just like.

Speaker 1:
01:13:40 - 01:13:41
So how did you make money?

Matt Handy:
01:13:42 - 01:14:13
All kinds of different ways. Like mostly like there was like the, there was like, we were a cog in the wheel of like a drug, like selling drugs. Like ultimately like bringing it. We were from San Diego. So like the Mexico's right there. So we'd like bring drugs across. We were, like, working dudes for money and, like, she would, like, I don't know how she did it, but she would always get these, like, doctors and dentists that would just, like, give her money. Right? And ultimately,

Matt Handy:
01:14:13 - 01:14:32
like, it started off a certain way, like, originally. And then it was, like, when I got involved, we were just, like, the first day I met this one dude, he, like, gave me $7,500. And it was, like, just this whole, like, we started learning how to, like, work people together. And it just turned into a fucking mess.

Speaker 1:
01:14:33 - 01:14:33
Wow.

Speaker 1:
01:14:34 - 01:14:34
Mm-hmm.

Apurva:
01:14:35 - 01:14:39
Yeah. I don't think I would have had. Yeah. I mean, he could have done that.

Speaker 1:
01:14:39 - 01:14:40
Anyways,

Speaker 1:
01:14:40 - 01:14:40
yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:14:41 - 01:15:00
That's crazy. But she was saying it the other day. She was, like, just, like, the level of freedom that comes with having absolutely no. Yeah. People try to capture that. They try to go on like these month-long camping trips and like – but you still have responsibilities and you still have like things that are over your head.

Speaker 1:
01:15:01 - 01:15:01
And so,

Matt Handy:
01:15:01 - 01:15:11
you know, it's like we don't miss the drugs. We don't miss the lifestyle. But if there was a way to like capture that kind of freedom – Yeah,

Apurva:
01:15:11 - 01:15:13
when you don't have any – yeah, that would be great.

Speaker 1:
01:15:13 - 01:15:13
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:15:14 - 01:15:15
Because life is hard.

Matt Handy:
01:15:16 - 01:15:25
Life is hard. I think a lot of people have like a misconception and it's because of what they're told about what recovery is. recovery is like the hardest lifestyle you could live.

Speaker 1:
01:15:25 - 01:15:25
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:15:26 - 01:15:44
And I tell people all the time that if you can quit doing drugs, if you can quit doing drugs, if you can quit drinking like alcoholically or addictedly, then I'm pretty convinced that you can do pretty much anything. It's got to be like one of the hardest things that humans ever had to do is try to like kick an addiction.

Apurva:
01:15:45 - 01:15:49
I know. Well, it's like it's not hard to quit it. It's hard to stay quit.

Matt Handy:
01:15:49 - 01:15:52
I say it all the time. You know what I mean? Getting clean is not hard.

Apurva:
01:15:52 - 01:15:57
Staying clean is hard. Staying is hard because then it's like – and then being an adult.

Speaker 1:
01:15:58 - 01:15:58
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:15:59 - 01:16:02
I mean actually having to do work and be responsible.

Matt Handy:
01:16:02 - 01:16:26
I started using drugs like – I think I tried my first Oxy when I was 16. I was slamming heroin by the time I was 17. And so I didn't get clean for real. Like I think I – the most I put together was like that I can remember was 64 days. And I would like – I've gotten a treatment a few times where like I would stay clean during treatment. I would immediately relapse after because I was just going to treatment to like escape consequences.

Speaker 1:
01:16:27 - 01:16:27
Right.

Matt Handy:
01:16:28 - 01:16:32
And so I finally was like introduced to myself when I was 31.

Speaker 1:
01:16:33 - 01:16:33
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:16:33 - 01:16:36
So I never knew like adult me ever.

Speaker 1:
01:16:37 - 01:16:37
No.

Matt Handy:
01:16:39 - 01:16:47
And so like learning who you are, taking on responsibility, fulfilling like obligations and like being.

Apurva:
01:16:47 - 01:16:48
Medical power of attorney.

Speaker 1:
01:16:50 - 01:16:50
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:16:50 - 01:16:51
God bless.

Matt Handy:
01:16:51 - 01:17:20
me of all people dude yeah yeah I mean it's crazy right like the ultimately like people that end up in and we also just nature of the beast is like we have better insight to us than like most people okay the way that I say it is like most people stay in the solution and they maybe venture out a little bit but they stay pretty close to it yeah we're coming from the problem towards the solution and so our perspective is different,

Matt Handy:
01:17:20 - 01:17:32
the things that we are willing to do and the things that we have done, most people would never even think about. No. You know, like I don't know many pharmacists that would like ever snort meth in a pharmacy.

Speaker 1:
01:17:33 - 01:17:33
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:17:33 - 01:17:52
I don't know many people. I don't. So I know more people than I think the average person, but I don't know many people that know people who have robbed banks. Right. And so like I've robbed a bank. I have friends. I have a bunch of friends that have robbed banks. Oh, that's cool. I mean,

Apurva:
01:17:52 - 01:17:54
I would never do that now, but that's cool.

Matt Handy:
01:17:54 - 01:18:05
Right? Yeah. But like most people, they don't know bank robbers. No. And like I was like the least successful one that I know. I only robbed one. A lot of my friends have robbed multiple banks.

Apurva:
01:18:07 - 01:18:10
What a goal. Right?

Matt Handy:
01:18:11 - 01:18:22
I was on another podcast and she was like, wait, it sounds like you're saying that you like chose to be a drug addict. And I was telling her, like, most kids when you ask them what they want to do when they grow up.

Apurva:
01:18:23 - 01:18:26
I did not raise my hand and say I wanted to be an alcoholic.

Matt Handy:
01:18:26 - 01:18:54
I, most people don't. Yeah. Right. But situationally and then, like, due to exposure. So the story goes, when I was, like, I think I was eight. I was definitely younger than 10, but I was definitely older than six. I was probably eight, somewhere around there. My grandpa, like, married this young Mexican chick and she had a bunch of gangbanger sons. And we would go like get left at my grandparent, my grandparent, my grandfather's house. Like not that we were left there,

Matt Handy:
01:18:54 - 01:19:16
but he loved us there. Right. And so we would go over there. And one time I like opened the bathroom door and my uncle was like shooting up in the bathroom. And he was like, shut the fucking door, shut the door, shut the door. And so I walked into the bathroom and shut the door. And from then on, like from that moment on, I knew that I would do, I didn't even know what it was. Yeah. I just knew that I would do it someday.

Matt Handy:
01:19:17 - 01:19:47
and then you remember like those like I'm the oldest of 10 kids so we always had those like water syringes yeah that babies have and I would I like my whole childhood would pretend like I was shooting drugs wow yeah I can't say that that's my experience right I don't think it's a normal experience no I think mine was very more emotional like self esteem wise so you're with Ryan Oh,

Apurva:
01:19:47 - 01:19:54
yeah. So I'm with Ryan. We're together plus seven, eight years. Something like that.

Matt Handy:
01:19:54 - 01:20:00
That's a really long fucked up relationship. A lot of those types of relationships don't last that long.

Apurva:
01:20:00 - 01:20:04
Yeah. Well, so we so like, you know, we we just.

Matt Handy:
01:20:04 - 01:20:06
Was it a fucked up relationship? Oh, absolutely. Oh, OK.

Apurva:
01:20:07 - 01:20:10
Absolutely. Like he cheated on me a bazillion times. I mean,

Matt Handy:
01:20:10 - 01:20:11
you guys hang out at strip clubs.

Apurva:
01:20:11 - 01:20:45
Yeah. He actually introduced me to the girls that he would be cheating on because like I had like literally I didn't know how to get away from it. He was my first. Yeah. Like my first everything. And like we would. And I thought I was just trying to be cool with him, you know, so that way he would hang out with me and stuff like that. And finally, we were doing all we ended up the FBI came after us. That was also fun. We ended up doing like a real estate scheme back in the day. So in Houston,

Apurva:
01:20:45 - 01:21:23
there was like a whole $13 million of fraud, real estate fraud that happened like early 2000s. And so basically the scheme was that we would buy a property. And short sell it. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, like, pull everything out, and then, like, they would use my credit and everything. So at, like, barely 22 years old working at Kroger's, I somehow managed to get a— and, of course, they had everybody in line, right?

Matt Handy:
01:21:23 - 01:21:25
What were those mortgages called? Subprime mortgages?

Apurva:
01:21:26 - 01:22:03
Yeah. So, like, I bought two properties, totally got, like, $1.5 million with a credit score of, like— 400. Like 600, like whatever it was. And I didn't know what was going on, but I just followed him. And we, like, all of a sudden, like, we got a check for, like, $10,000 or $15,000. And we would literally drink it and put it in our nose. Yeah. And then finally it kind of all broke, you know, everybody went to jail and prison. And, you know, and so, like, FBI went to my parents' house,

Apurva:
01:22:04 - 01:22:33
knocked on the door. Like they were trying to find me. Of course, I actually met with them at one point and they were like, well, we're not trying to catch you because you're just like the little fish. But like if you help us, I was like, what is this, like the movies? I'm sitting here at the big conference table and they're like, okay. But then, you know, Ryan was still alive. And so I was like, I didn't want him to go to prison. So I was like kind of in this stuck, like I can't tell anybody.

Apurva:
01:22:34 - 01:23:07
And so he decided he was just going to like disappear. So he just, I don't know where he went. You know, he went for like two and a half weeks and then called me one day and said, hey, I'm at the airport. You need to come and get me. Throughout this whole time, like we are buying like eight balls every night. And we ended up like sleeping on the couch at his mom's house until one day we got meth instead of coke. And he was horrible on it. And we ended up, actually, ironically,

Apurva:
01:23:07 - 01:23:52
so they called the cops because he started trying to beat up his mom and his sister. Classy. Yeah. But instead he beat me up because I got in the middle. And he was, like, throwing the really nice dishes. Like, we were living in the Galleria area and all of that. So they called the cops and the ambulance. And so he ended up going to River Oaks Hospital. It was 12 Oaks. Irony. It used to be 12 Oaks Hospital. So I remember we went there and we got the whole packet for rehab, like the whole thing. And lo and behold, like, you know, 20 years later, I'm rounding there.

Matt Handy:
01:23:53 - 01:23:56
That's so funny. I went to detox there.

Speaker 1:
01:23:56 - 01:23:57
Oh,

Speaker 1:
01:23:57 - 01:23:57
yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:23:57 - 01:23:59
Wait a minute. How long have you been working there?

Apurva:
01:24:00 - 01:24:09
River Oaks? Not long. I don't work there anymore. I mean, I think I'm still credentialed, but yeah. I was only there maybe like four months or something.

Speaker 1:
01:24:10 - 01:24:10
Okay.

Matt Handy:
01:24:10 - 01:24:14
For as long as I was at Serenity. Wait, yeah. When did that start?

Speaker 1:
01:24:14 - 01:24:14
Serenity?

Speaker 1:
01:24:15 - 01:24:15
Mm-hmm.

Apurva:
01:24:15 - 01:24:17
February of this year.

Matt Handy:
01:24:17 - 01:24:19
Of this year? Okay, yeah. For sure.

Apurva:
01:24:20 - 01:24:23
And then, God, it feels like a lifetime. This whole year has been...

Matt Handy:
01:24:25 - 01:24:26
You had a crazy year.

Apurva:
01:24:26 - 01:24:43
I've had... Oh, yeah. This year, I started my own clinic. I moved in with my parents, with my husband, my three-year-old. We're buying our houses being built. So we're closing December 23rd. So now we get to move.

Matt Handy:
01:24:43 - 01:24:44
December 23rd.

Speaker 1:
01:24:44 - 01:24:44
I don't know.

Apurva:
01:24:45 - 01:24:52
I'm so excited to get out of this. What are you moving to? It's called Stone Creek Estate. So it's off of 59 and 99.

Speaker 1:
01:24:53 - 01:24:54
Okay.

Apurva:
01:24:55 - 01:24:57
In Sugar Land, Richmond area.

Matt Handy:
01:24:57 - 01:24:59
Yeah. That's like, yeah, yeah.

Apurva:
01:25:00 - 01:25:01
Total opposite direction over here.

Speaker 1:
01:25:01 - 01:25:01
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:25:02 - 01:25:03
I know. I live in Friendswood.

Speaker 1:
01:25:04 - 01:25:04
Oh,

Speaker 1:
01:25:04 - 01:25:05
Jesus.

Speaker 1:
01:25:05 - 01:25:05
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:25:05 - 01:25:06
And you come here?

Speaker 1:
01:25:06 - 01:25:07
Every day.

Speaker 1:
01:25:07 - 01:25:07
Wow.

Speaker 1:
01:25:08 - 01:25:08
That's a drive.

Speaker 1:
01:25:09 - 01:25:09
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:25:10 - 01:25:12
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I try to, like, leave at, like, 1030.

Speaker 1:
01:25:13 - 01:25:13
Mm-hmm.

Matt Handy:
01:25:13 - 01:25:19
Because then it takes 35 minutes to drive here. But if I leave at the wrong time, it turns into, like, an hour and a half drive. Oh, yeah.

Apurva:
01:25:20 - 01:25:44
So it was funny because, like, I was looking when you sent me the directions here when I looked at yesterday. It's like, oh, it's, like, 35 minutes. And I was like, man, Mancom's far. Like, how is it only 35 minutes? But I think it was like a Sunday, right? Yeah. And then I looked today and then I was like, 45 minutes. And I was like, that's a little bit more realistic. So I was like, it's going to be at least an hour by the time something happens, you know, whatever.

Matt Handy:
01:25:45 - 01:25:51
It's crazy. Like, if you have to go through that, because I have to, it's either I go through downtown or I go all the way around. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:25:51 - 01:25:52
It's like,

Matt Handy:
01:25:52 - 01:26:13
you know, fucking crazy. I'm from California. Like we have legendary – like we have LA and San Francisco. Oh, yeah. And you hear about like New York and Chicago traffic and shit like that. And then I moved here. I was like, why does nobody talk about Houston traffic? Yeah, it's ridiculous. This is – there's crazy traffic.

Apurva:
01:26:14 - 01:26:29
And the drivers here – When you don't even use miles anymore to figure out – like the only way you can figure out how far something is is by how many minutes it takes. Yeah. Like other places are like, oh, it's like three miles away. But like three miles in Houston could be 45 minutes.

Matt Handy:
01:26:29 - 01:26:30
Could be, yeah.

Apurva:
01:26:31 - 01:26:32
Or three.

Matt Handy:
01:26:32 - 01:26:43
Yeah, depending on what time. It's funny because right there, like on the 45 getting into downtown, it doesn't matter what time. I mean, I've hit traffic there at 10 o'clock at night.

Speaker 1:
01:26:43 - 01:26:44
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:26:44 - 01:26:48
Oh, like that 59 and 610 intersection? Oh.

Speaker 1:
01:26:49 - 01:26:49
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:26:50 - 01:26:50
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
01:26:50 - 01:26:50
it's like,

Matt Handy:
01:26:50 - 01:26:56
it's just so crazy. Yeah. Okay, so he beat up you.

Speaker 1:
01:26:56 - 01:26:57
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
01:26:57 - 01:26:57
he beat me up,

Apurva:
01:26:58 - 01:27:17
but I was still in love. And so we got kicked out of his mom's house. So that's when we started living in hotels. We lived in hotels for probably about a year. So I was working as a waitress.

Speaker 1:
01:27:18 - 01:27:18
Where?

Apurva:
01:27:19 - 01:27:20
At Papacito's.

Matt Handy:
01:27:20 - 01:27:22
I just ate there for the first time. It's pretty good.

Apurva:
01:27:22 - 01:27:25
Yeah, it's a little expensive, but it's good. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:27:25 - 01:27:27
They have really good steak fajitas.

Speaker 1:
01:27:27 - 01:27:27
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:27:28 - 01:27:35
I like their shrimp fajitas if you add a little extra chili. They have a Diablo pepper.

Matt Handy:
01:27:37 - 01:27:47
I haven't eaten shrimp in a long time, like a long time. And now when I look at it, I'm like, that just doesn't even look good anymore. Lobster, a lot of people love lobster.

Apurva:
01:27:47 - 01:28:02
I don't get it. I don't either. I don't get it. I've tried it. I'm not even a big steak fan. I don't get it. Maybe it's because I grew up vegetarian. I like burgers.

Matt Handy:
01:28:03 - 01:28:04
Have you ever been to Papa's Burgers?

Speaker 1:
01:28:05 - 01:28:05
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:28:05 - 01:28:06
That place is amazing.

Apurva:
01:28:07 - 01:28:14
Rudy's, I like all of that. Someone told me, we're going to go get a steak. I'm like, okay.

Speaker 1:
01:28:15 - 01:28:15
Wait a minute.

Matt Handy:
01:28:16 - 01:28:18
It's you, right? We're supposed to take you out, me and Dr. Shaw?

Speaker 1:
01:28:19 - 01:28:19
Are we?

Matt Handy:
01:28:19 - 01:28:20
I don't know. I think so.

Speaker 1:
01:28:21 - 01:28:21
I don't know.

Speaker 1:
01:28:23 - 01:28:23
I'm pretty sure.

Matt Handy:
01:28:24 - 01:28:25
Like we're supposed to take you to dinner or something.

Speaker 1:
01:28:27 - 01:28:27
Why?

Matt Handy:
01:28:27 - 01:28:34
I don't know. He just said, hey, we have to take this person to dinner. I was like, okay. Oh, because he wants you to work for him.

Speaker 1:
01:28:35 - 01:28:35
Oh,

Apurva:
01:28:35 - 01:28:40
yeah. But I'm already, yeah, I'm trying to get credentialed. I'm waiting. I sent my paperwork.

Matt Handy:
01:28:40 - 01:28:47
So we're buying a 148-bed facility with a 38-bed detox in Pasadena.

Speaker 1:
01:28:48 - 01:28:48
Wow.

Speaker 1:
01:28:50 - 01:28:50
Oh,

Speaker 1:
01:28:50 - 01:28:50
yeah.

Apurva:
01:28:50 - 01:28:51
He's going to be the medical.

Matt Handy:
01:28:51 - 01:29:00
He's the medical director. Well, I mean, this is where we're proving and testing and collecting data for NeuroWise. Yeah. And so, yeah, of course he has to. I'm really excited.

Speaker 1:
01:29:01 - 01:29:01
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:29:01 - 01:29:02
Yeah. I'm down.

Speaker 1:
01:29:03 - 01:29:03
Absolutely.

Matt Handy:
01:29:04 - 01:29:33
Yeah. It's going to be... So we just got all of the deliverables. We had the study designed by a couple of PhDs and we're looking for an IRB right now. And it'll be interesting. I've never, you know, like I was literally living under a bridge five years ago. Actually, it's coming up on. So my wife at the time, my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, found out she was pregnant the day before Thanksgiving of 2020.

Speaker 1:
01:29:35 - 01:29:35
So.

Speaker 1:
01:29:36 - 01:29:36
Oh.

Matt Handy:
01:29:37 - 01:29:48
So the day after Thanksgiving, she told me she was pregnant and broke up with me the same time. She was like, you are going to get me killed. Like at this time in my life. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:29:49 - 01:30:20
shit was going really sideways i was like robbing connects and like just doing crazy shit and she was like you're gonna get yourself killed you're probably gonna get me killed and then now i have this baby i gotta worry about and so she broke up with me and in my head i was like okay this is a perfect time to rob a bank because um it was during during covid and you couldn't go into a bank without a mask on. Yeah. So I was like, okay, this is, I'll fucking show her. Right. And, um, how'd that work out?

Speaker 1:
01:30:20 - 01:30:21
I got away with it.

Matt Handy:
01:30:21 - 01:30:42
Oh yeah. I got away with it. I got caught on unrelated charges, but I gave that cop such a hard time. He was like looking through, you know, all points bulletins are. So they'll have like information and then they'll set out these warnings for everybody to like be on the lookout for somebody. There's like be on the lookouts and then APBs. Oh, yeah.

Apurva:
01:30:42 - 01:30:43
I was an APB.

Speaker 1:
01:30:43 - 01:30:43
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
01:30:43 - 01:30:44
for sure.

Matt Handy:
01:30:44 - 01:31:18
For sure. Well, I told the bank that I had a bomb and that I would kill everybody. And so they wanted to talk to me. So I tell this cop – I mean, I give this cop – I mean, it's a nightmare. I really put this cop through it. I was trying not to go to jail. Like, I tried everything that I could. Yeah. And so he was looking through and saw me. They didn't know my name. They just had a picture of me. This is all here? This is in San Diego. San Diego. Okay. He called them and said, hey, I think I arrested your guy. And they came like three days later and booked me on it.

Speaker 1:
01:31:19 - 01:31:20
How long were you in prison?

Matt Handy:
01:31:21 - 01:31:32
So that's like a big part of how all of this started was I ended up taking a deal. I pled guilty and took a deal. And I got sent to residential for three years.

Speaker 1:
01:31:33 - 01:31:33
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:31:34 - 01:32:04
And so I was in residential for three years. And it was actually two years and eight months. I went back for like a – I had to go in front of a judge for some reason. I don't remember. And the judge was like, you've been in treatment for – at this point, it's two years and six and a half months or something like that. And I was graduating the program. Like the graduation that I was closest to fell into like right there. And so I was graduating, but I was just going to stay there.

Matt Handy:
01:32:05 - 01:32:21
And the judge was like, if you make it to graduation, then your obligation to the courts is fulfilled. So it was like four months that they let me go. But now I was still on probation for like a year and a half after that.

Speaker 1:
01:32:21 - 01:32:22
That's not bad.

Matt Handy:
01:32:23 - 01:32:49
Yeah, I mean, considering the deal, the max exposure was like, I can't remember if it was 56 years or 86 years. That was like if they maxed out on the charges and like hit me with the max on all of everything, it would have been either 56 or 86 years in prison. The deal was 33. That was like what they were offering me. And they were like, if you want a better deal, go to trial and we'll just – we'll see what happens. And it was like very obviously me.

Matt Handy:
01:32:49 - 01:32:58
Like my family like saw the pictures on the news and they were like, oh, that is for sure. That is for sure, Matthew. Like I'll show you the pictures.

Apurva:
01:32:58 - 01:33:00
Oh, my God. What a story.

Speaker 1:
01:33:01 - 01:33:01
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:33:04 - 01:33:13
Yeah, it was. So I didn't end up going to prison. I just had like a lot of prison time over my head at one point. And.

Apurva:
01:33:16 - 01:33:18
How did you get away with just one?

Speaker 1:
01:33:19 - 01:33:20
Just one.

Apurva:
01:33:20 - 01:33:24
One and a half years probation and then two years of residential. Ultimately,

Matt Handy:
01:33:24 - 01:33:42
it was three years of residential. And they start the probation clock the day you get out of jail. So they wanted me on probation for four years and in a residential facility for three. And so three of the four years of – But the deal was 33 years? Yeah. That was the deal. They were like,

Apurva:
01:33:42 - 01:33:46
you can take – And then the jury said only like – No,

Matt Handy:
01:33:46 - 01:34:03
because I took a deal. I didn't have to go to trial. Okay. Right? And so the way that the punitive like justice system works is like you can go to trial or they can give you a deal. If you go to trial and you get found guilty, you get the max. Okay. Right. Or you can get a deal, get a lot less, but they get their conviction.

Apurva:
01:34:04 - 01:34:10
So if you were to break probation, then you'd have to go to 33 years.

Matt Handy:
01:34:10 - 01:34:42
So the deal I signed for was 10, but there was technicalities in the sentencing. So the way that it ended up working was I signed a deal where I took two strikes and then they hung a strike in 10 years. So if I messed this deal up, I would have gotten 10 off the top. And then they would have given me my third strike, which would have allowed them to try to sentence me 25 to life. Wow. And so the reason why they gave me such a great deal is because it was like, you're either going to get this right or you're going to go to prison for forever.

Apurva:
01:34:44 - 01:34:45
Let's not go to prison forever.

Speaker 1:
01:34:46 - 01:34:46
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:34:47 - 01:34:48
Yeah. It was a very easy.

Speaker 1:
01:34:50 - 01:34:50
Decision.

Matt Handy:
01:34:52 - 01:35:02
Not just decision, but it also was like when you have that kind of consequence over your head, like it's really easy not to fuck up. With the right mindset, right? Yeah,

Apurva:
01:35:02 - 01:35:04
no, I remember that mindset.

Speaker 1:
01:35:05 - 01:35:05
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:35:05 - 01:35:06
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:35:06 - 01:35:06
But then,

Matt Handy:
01:35:07 - 01:35:35
like you don't have the consequences anymore, right? That's what happened to me. Yeah. I moved to Texas. I didn't have all these consequences over my head anymore. I had fulfilled my obligations. And really, the probation, once I was on probation, all that time goes away anyway, right? So the deal was I was going to complete this program and they dropped the charges, right? So now I'm just on probation. Now it's just like if I fuck this up, I'll go to jail for 10 days or whatever.

Matt Handy:
01:35:36 - 01:35:46
So when that became a thing, six months later, I relapsed, right? And this show is called My Last Relapse because of what happened in that relapse. That's where I met Dr. Shah.

Speaker 1:
01:35:47 - 01:35:48
He detoxed me.

Apurva:
01:35:49 - 01:35:52
Oh. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah,

Matt Handy:
01:35:52 - 01:35:56
which is a whole funny story. You should ask him about my...

Apurva:
01:35:56 - 01:36:02
Dr. Shaw has introduced me to a whole lot of individuals in the last few years.

Matt Handy:
01:36:02 - 01:36:05
So this is my booking picture. This is what I looked like when I got arrested.

Apurva:
01:36:07 - 01:36:10
Oh, wow. Isn't that crazy? That's, yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:36:11 - 01:36:18
And then I've got... So when you type in Matthew Handy San Diego, the first thing that pops up is the pictures of me in the bank.

Speaker 1:
01:36:20 - 01:36:20
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:36:23 - 01:36:27
I'm really glad that I don't now have my mugshot picture.

Matt Handy:
01:36:27 - 01:36:33
You don't have it? Oh, man. So these are those two on the left on the top.

Apurva:
01:36:33 - 01:36:34
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:
01:36:35 - 01:36:35
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:36:38 - 01:36:38
So,

Speaker 1:
01:36:38 - 01:36:39
like,

Matt Handy:
01:36:39 - 01:36:42
all you can see is this, but it is very obviously me.

Speaker 1:
01:36:46 - 01:36:47
Isn't that crazy?

Apurva:
01:36:49 - 01:36:50
No more robbing banks.

Matt Handy:
01:36:51 - 01:37:24
No, no more robbing banks. That was when I first met Megan is when all of my, that's my wife, that's when all my friends were like doing all of that shit. And so our whole relationship, I would tell her like, I could just rob a bank. It's so easy. Like, I know I can get away with it and all this shit for years. Like for three years, I would tell her this and she would just be like, just don't fucking do it. Like we don't need that. Like obviously like we didn't need that money and it's not – you're not going to get a lot of money out of a bank unless you take it over.

Speaker 1:
01:37:25 - 01:37:25
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:37:25 - 01:37:31
Right? Like if you're just walking up in there and saying give me the money, they're going to give you the money that's right in front of them. That's it.

Speaker 1:
01:37:31 - 01:37:31
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:37:32 - 01:38:00
And so you're not going to – And then press the button and then – Yeah. Well, my whole thing – so enough of my friends had done it where they were like, if you say this, this, and this, and this, they won't hit the alarm. They won't give you any, like, tracers. They won't mark the money. They'll just give it to you and you just leave. Right? And so I had, like, all that playbook. And I'm genius, right? When I'm doing drugs and, like – yeah. I had this, like – yeah.

Apurva:
01:38:01 - 01:38:03
I was genius when I was doing drugs.

Speaker 1:
01:38:05 - 01:38:06
me too.

Speaker 1:
01:38:06 - 01:38:07
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:38:07 - 01:38:08
I did really good selling cocaine.

Speaker 1:
01:38:09 - 01:38:10
Actually,

Speaker 1:
01:38:10 - 01:38:10
that,

Apurva:
01:38:11 - 01:38:24
I know. I was actually not that bad because like, my like, face is not very, you know, it's very innocent. Cocaine dealer, yeah. Yeah, like, nobody would ever think of me as a, you know, drug addict, alcoholic.

Matt Handy:
01:38:24 - 01:38:33
Okay, I'm not gonna lie, when you describe, you didn't really describe him, but the picture that came into my head when you talk about Ryan is Malibu's Most Wanted.

Speaker 1:
01:38:33 - 01:38:34
Yes.

Matt Handy:
01:38:34 - 01:38:35
Okay, for sure.

Speaker 1:
01:38:35 - 01:38:35
Yeah,

Matt Handy:
01:38:35 - 01:38:35
absolutely.

Speaker 1:
01:38:35 - 01:38:35
Okay.

Speaker 1:
01:38:36 - 01:38:36
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:38:36 - 01:38:40
Like, white, I mean, just pale, like, the whole thing. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:38:41 - 01:38:42
Baggy clothes.

Apurva:
01:38:43 - 01:39:17
Yeah. Cheap. Every once in a while. But, like, he was very preppy. Like, you would have never put him as a drug dealer or anything like that. Like, he was so. But then you added the little short little black dude. Like, we were like, it was literally like a movie. Yeah. We'd be driving in my Toyota Corolla because they didn't have a car. Yeah. Going to strip clubs and selling cocaine. And I was in college at U of H and I was trying to get my degree in math, apparently.

Matt Handy:
01:39:19 - 01:39:20
Oh, are you good at math?

Apurva:
01:39:20 - 01:39:22
I used to be. Come this way.

Speaker 1:
01:39:22 - 01:39:23
Oh.

Matt Handy:
01:39:23 - 01:39:37
See how everybody ends up doing that. Yeah, I don't know why. I've got to figure it out. You know what I think I'm going to do is I'm going to put like a piece of wood. I'm just going. Behind that so that you can't move back. Everybody does it. But yeah, okay. So you got into meth.

Apurva:
01:39:38 - 01:39:43
Well, yeah. So that, I didn't really get into meth. That was like the first time I ever tried meth.

Matt Handy:
01:39:43 - 01:39:46
But then I How'd you end up snorting meth at the Well,

Apurva:
01:39:46 - 01:39:56
so we didn't finish the whole bag. And then, so he couldn't tolerate it, but I could. So I just slowly finished the bag. Because I wasn't, it's not like I was going to throw it away. Okay,

Matt Handy:
01:39:56 - 01:39:58
so you were already working at a Pharmacy.

Apurva:
01:39:58 - 01:40:33
Pharmacy. Yeah, so I was working at a pharmacy and I was working part-time at the restaurant. And then we got kicked out of the house and his mom... What was he doing for work? He didn't work. Selling Coke. Yeah. So he made enough... He basically went off the grid after the whole FBI situation. Yeah. And then, yeah, so we lived... After that, I ended up leaving the pharmacy because I wasn't really making as – I was making 15 bucks an hour or whatever it was.

Apurva:
01:40:33 - 01:40:46
So I was making more as a waitress. So I would work basically like every day except Sundays. So that would pay for the hotel and the eight bottle of Coke and my alcohol or our alcohol.

Speaker 1:
01:40:46 - 01:40:46
Every day?

Speaker 1:
01:40:47 - 01:40:47
Every day.

Speaker 1:
01:40:47 - 01:40:48
Terrible.

Speaker 1:
01:40:48 - 01:40:48
Terrible.

Matt Handy:
01:40:49 - 01:40:50
What kind of tips were you making?

Speaker 1:
01:40:52 - 01:40:53
It wasn't great.

Apurva:
01:40:54 - 01:41:32
I mean, papasitos, I mean, but I'd have to work like the whole shift, like double shift to make, I had to make at least 130. I forgot what my calculus. In tips to cover the hotel. The extracurriculars. Yes. That's all we did. Like I literally, like as I wear scrubs every day, like I literally only wear scrubs and pajamas. And then every once in a while I get excited if I get to wear a pair of jeans. Nice. Like, but my pajamas are my favorite. But, yeah, so, I mean,

Apurva:
01:41:32 - 01:41:52
I just worked at Papacito's for forever. And then I think I was like 24. So then one night or one day, so I only had a car. So he didn't have a car. He didn't have a driver's license. He didn't do shit. He just sat at the hotel room all day while I worked like a chump.

Apurva:
01:41:53 - 01:42:25
and then um one day he so he would drop me off at work and then pick me up later well yeah so then he had the car the whole time too yeah oh and then our cigarettes so we had cigarettes so we would you know yeah cigarettes are an expensive habit yeah i was like i mean we would smoke at least a pack back in half a day that's crazy yes yeah each of you yeah so we would but this was it was a lot of cigarettes but cigarettes were significantly cheaper and then like the eight ball then then yeah then

Apurva:
01:42:25 - 01:43:01
coke yeah yeah then you had the coke so it was about and then like the hotel was like 45 bucks oh wow you guys were staying at some classy places oh yeah like i didn't even know that hotels existed that didn't play porn like it was so funny i know when i got into recovery like i was moving my sponsor we drove to Tennessee and I stayed at a hotel room for the first time and like god knows like forever and um and we stayed at like holiday and nothing like you know yeah and I was like hey there's no

Apurva:
01:43:01 - 01:43:25
porn on here and she just looked at me like what and I was like well every hotel I've lived I've stayed at in the last two years did you get on there and look for it no but I mean it was like I did I was like you know just flipping through this the channels like it's on TV, you know? And so I was like, oh, there's no like girl on girl. So funny. I know. I was like, oh my God.

Speaker 1:
01:43:26 - 01:43:26
That's funny.

Speaker 1:
01:43:26 - 01:43:26
I mean,

Apurva:
01:43:27 - 01:43:37
like, it was crazy. Like, I mean, seven, eight years of, you know, him cheating on me. He was supposed to get married to some other girl, but like I would be on the side.

Matt Handy:
01:43:38 - 01:43:40
But you were like the main chick on the side?

Apurva:
01:43:40 - 01:43:44
Yeah. Like, but like if one, so at one point he was making money.

Speaker 1:
01:43:45 - 01:43:46
Selling coke?

Apurva:
01:43:46 - 01:44:23
No. He got into the real estate stuff before, you know, it all hit the fan. And so I was there for the downfall. And so whenever his friends, like, left him because he didn't have any more money, he would call me, right? Yeah. So, of course, that's not really good for self-esteem. And, you know, that was my first love. And then so one day he went and he came to pick me up, and he was doing way more coke. And I was like, where did it? Because I lost money all of a sudden in my purse.

Apurva:
01:44:23 - 01:45:03
And then apparently I guess he went to go get more coke from whoever my contact was, and he did a little too much. And then we were, like, and I was doing some because I found it. And then, of course, we're both doing it together. And he would get really, really paranoid doing the coke, like looking out the windows. And so this time he ran out the hotel room and he ended up on the roof and fell off and died. Holy shit. Yeah. And I watched him die. And it was so crazy because it was like that.

Apurva:
01:45:03 - 01:45:34
And as soon as he like they called, you know, ambulance and everything. And he was in the ambulance in the bay or in the ambulance. And they're like, who are you? I'm like, I'm his wife. I'm like, I'm his wife. Like, I got to get into the ambulance. And they're like, we're not you can't go in there. You can't go in there. And I was like, OK. And then like not even 10 minutes in there, he died. Wow. Like he had hit his, so he, on the hotels on Hillcroft and 59, there's like that,

Apurva:
01:45:35 - 01:45:42
there's that Guadalajara restaurant. I don't know over there that well. So there's a hotel that, so like on the second floor, there's a.

Speaker 1:
01:45:43 - 01:45:43
Railing.

Apurva:
01:45:43 - 01:46:11
There's a, no, there's a ceiling, like for, they have like a ballroom or, you know, a cafeteria or something. So there was the roof off, so he fell off the fourth floor onto the roof of that and hit his head. So then I had to go grab him. And of course he had a brain bleed and he died. Wow. And then not even five, five minutes when I got back to the room, when the police officers were there, like his mom called, it was like the, him and his mom were not on speaking terms after she kicked him out.

Apurva:
01:46:11 - 01:46:37
And then they were finally starting to, you know, talk again. So like they were talking like once a week or something like that. And then I didn't, didn't tell her, but the police officers did. And then they were like, you need to search the room because there's probably cocaine in there. And so they searched and they didn't find it, but it was in there. And then I finished it. So that was a really awkward funeral because everybody thought I pushed him. But, like,

Apurva:
01:46:37 - 01:47:08
it was really sad because there was no, like. Nobody there? Nobody there. Like, he didn't have any friends except. And then, like, I, like, the little black dude, Mark, that we would hang out with, like, he didn't even come to his funeral. And they used to live together. Like, they were, like, best friends. Yeah. And it was just me that showed up. And then, like, his little sister and me were, like, really close. And now we are definitely not close. And it's really weird because,

Apurva:
01:47:08 - 01:47:39
like, me and the older sister stayed friends-ish. And, I mean, like, we just kept up with each other, like, on Facebook and, like, would comment randomly. Like, nothing, you know, exciting. And then somehow, like, I was pregnant, and the little sister—no, not by him. Like, I was pregnant, like, just recently, like, three years ago. And so, like, she's never on Facebook or Insta or anything like that. And all of a sudden, I get this message, and I'm, like, eight months pregnant.

Apurva:
01:47:39 - 01:47:59
And she's like, you're the reason why my brother died. Like, why are you still, you know, keeping in touch or commenting on their Facebook? I hope your little boy dies and all of this stuff. Like, I hope you go through the same pain that we've been through. And I was like, and I felt really bad for her because I was like, because it's been almost 20 years since he passed.

Speaker 1:
01:48:00 - 01:48:00
Wow.

Apurva:
01:48:01 - 01:48:30
Yeah, something like that. And so I was like, and this is like, you're still like hating me, like to have that much hate, like almost, you know, 15 years later and you have kids and that you would wish that upon, you know, like, that's really sad. I was like, that's kind of a, I mean, I just. Telling? Yeah, I was like, I just had to say a prayer for her because I was like, that's not, you know, like, what kind of, like, if that's, you have that much hatred because of somebody.

Apurva:
01:48:30 - 01:48:41
Your brother was the addicted one, right? Like, but they thought it was me that caused it. And I was like, he's the one that introduced it to me, not the other way around.

Speaker 1:
01:48:41 - 01:48:41
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:48:42 - 01:48:46
But, you know, like, yeah. It was weird. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
01:48:46 - 01:48:49
So how long after he died did you get sober?

Apurva:
01:48:50 - 01:48:50
Years.

Speaker 1:
01:48:51 - 01:48:51
Years.

Apurva:
01:48:52 - 01:49:29
Yeah, I didn't get sober. I stopped doing cocaine at the time. I stopped doing cocaine because, of course, I found another guy, and he was like 20 years older than me. And he didn't do cocaine? No, but we had met at the bar, and we were like friends while Ryan was alive, and his name was Andy, and then he had two kids. And then when Ryan died, I was still doing cocaine. And he was like, you need to stop doing this. And then we started hooking up, of course. And then so I stopped doing cocaine. But I drank a lot more.

Speaker 1:
01:49:31 - 01:49:31
A lot more.

Matt Handy:
01:49:32 - 01:49:33
What was worse, the coke or the drinking?

Apurva:
01:49:34 - 01:49:38
The drinking. Significantly more. I did coke to drink more.

Speaker 1:
01:49:38 - 01:49:38
Oh.

Apurva:
01:49:39 - 01:49:51
So, like, I mean, the cocaine, like, it wasn't, I mean, I haven't done cocaine in like almost 17 years, 18 years. Yeah. But alcohol has only been 11.

Speaker 1:
01:49:52 - 01:49:54
So this is only.

Matt Handy:
01:49:55 - 01:49:57
So when did you start going to treatment?

Apurva:
01:49:58 - 01:50:39
So I got a second DWI when I was with Andy. So I was the before girl. So me and him had an affair. He was married with two kids. So I was having an affair with him. And then they got divorced. And then we lived together for like five years. And I helped raise his kids. And then I got the second DWI in his ex. So I found out about it. And then basically his lawyer was like, well, you either have to choose your kids or her. So obviously he chose his kids. That's probably a good decision. Yeah.

Apurva:
01:50:39 - 01:51:08
But he was also as alcoholic as I was. If not, well, I was drinking all day, but he was very possessive. Like, he wouldn't let me, like, go to the bar. Oh, I'm not surprised. You know what I mean? Like, he, and it was the bar that we met at. I'm very not surprised. Yeah, like, he just, he hit me a couple of times. Like, if we were going to go to the bar, I had to go with him. Or, like, I wasn't allowed to have friends. Like, I lost.

Matt Handy:
01:51:09 - 01:51:21
I mean, when you meet somebody like that, it's highly indicative of how they are. Like, because the assumption is that's how I met her. Yeah. Why wouldn't she do this with someone else?

Speaker 1:
01:51:21 - 01:51:21
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:51:22 - 01:51:22
All right.

Speaker 1:
01:51:22 - 01:51:23
Exactly.

Matt Handy:
01:51:23 - 01:51:28
And so I'm not saying that it's right, but the logic tracks for sure. Oh, no,

Apurva:
01:51:28 - 01:51:54
totally. Like, I mean, he was a better guy because it was like everything was in comparison to the previous guy. Right. So, like, he came home every night, you know, and then eventually he cheated on me as, you know, most people do. But then, like, we were going through this huge custody issue with the kids. Oh, yeah. Because she was like, oh, he's drunk. And, you know, of course he was. Like, he.

Speaker 1:
01:51:56 - 01:51:57
What did he do for work?

Apurva:
01:51:57 - 01:52:29
He was a finance. He's one of the finance directors at BMW. But she worked from home. I mean, she didn't work at all, but she was very sneaky. So I was like, I don't blame her at all to this day. Like, so she would start, he never looked at his bank account. She was in charge of everything. So she already kind of knew that he was cheating on her. Or like, you know, she had the inclination. So she started stashing money away. And so she waited until 10 years for her, for them to finally,

Apurva:
01:52:29 - 01:52:50
for her to finally say, I'm going to divorce you. I think they were married 11, 10 or 11 years. So like his state of Texas is after 10 years, you pay alimony. Oh, she is smart. Yeah. And then so he was making tons of money because he was a finance director. Yeah. And by the end of their divorce slash custody thing.

Speaker 1:
01:52:51 - 01:52:52
He was broke.

Apurva:
01:52:52 - 01:53:22
Oh, like he couldn't even work at BMW anymore. Like because she would just show up to the dealership and like cause all sorts of drama. And so he ended up at the Mini Cooper, and then they finally had to let him go there. And then so then he was working out somewhere in 290, and then Toyota he was at for a little bit. Like just he was like, yeah, yeah. And then she was just, and so she was like dating. She was also dating other guys. Like we were like, you know, doing all of this.

Apurva:
01:53:22 - 01:53:49
And she ended up hiring a private investigator, and he followed me. And I was in court for the DWI, and the PI showed up to my DWI hearing and stated that here's video of her drinking. Wow. And so before I even signed papers or anything, like, I had the interlock in my car.

Speaker 1:
01:53:50 - 01:53:50
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
01:53:51 - 01:53:51
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:53:52 - 01:54:07
So they were like, what the fuck, basically. and I wasn't anything I wasn't allowed to work at because I worked at the CVS in the neighborhood and I was like they were like yeah he was like you can't work there anymore the judge?

Apurva:
01:54:07 - 01:54:44
no my ex I wasn't even allowed to work really I think I got I got a job at my dad's old engineering company my dad sold his company to my uncle where everybody's my uncle and so I worked for him out in near Hobby Airport from Sugarland so I would drive and then my dad had bypass surgery in the middle of all of that so I'm drunk going to this job and I'm passing out a word you know Do you have sexual trauma in your past?

Apurva:
01:54:46 - 01:55:23
Uh no I mean I've done stupid sexual things but like not like where i was like i was never raped or like anything like that but um but yeah i just yeah it was bad like i mean it was just we just i just kept drinking and it like and i was before i only drank at night right like after i got off of work and but now i don't have a job i don't have anything to live for now i'm drinking during the day and that's when i crossed the line i don't even remember i drove his car and i wrecked it when i got my

Apurva:
01:55:23 - 01:56:00
second dw wow like and he was driving a 750 bmw and apparently he called me saying that he was going to get a ride and then i got mad that i was like well i'll just come and pick you up from z bar like how dare you go to z bar without me and then when i left to go pick him up is when i got and i like apparently i ran over a uh like there was a ditch and like I could have died. Oh. Yeah. And you don't remember any of it? No. I remember seeing the car afterwards. My first DWI, I thought I was on Highway 6,

Apurva:
01:56:00 - 01:56:39
but apparently I was on Westheimer. And I don't remember them handcuffing. I just remember waking, coming to because I fully blacked out. I remember coming to in the drunk tank on my first DWI. Downtown? No. Luckily, it was the best jail in Fort Bend County. But now it's the federal jail. So my first jail was, and I didn't call my parents. Of course. Right. So Ryan first picked me up with his little sister there. And then I went through probation and did all of that. And I was fine.

Apurva:
01:56:40 - 01:57:21
I was good. I still drank through my whole probation. but I didn't cross the line and then when I got the second DWI is when I was like as soon as I sign papers I'm going to quit drinking quit drinking, quit going, you know and then I couldn't stop like even and so I lucked out so at the second DWI I also not only did I get the second DWI but me and Andy broke up because it was all in the same 2012 arena so And then I went to rehab three times. So you know how God works? He's a very interesting guy,

Apurva:
01:57:21 - 01:57:52
that God guy. So I kept getting caught. Like I'm still, I was a story at Fort Bend County for how many times I got caught drinking. Really? Yeah. The last time I got caught was because I was going through DTs. Like I was shaking so bad at my UA. I've had seizures. I went to India and I drank. I didn't have a sober breath for at least six years, five years, six years, something like that. And so my sister was getting married. And so me and my dad, we went to India.

Apurva:
01:57:53 - 01:58:01
And we sat at different places on the plane so we both could drink. But I had never suddenly stopped drinking. So we were at my cousin's. Ever? Ever.

Speaker 1:
01:58:01 - 01:58:01
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:58:02 - 01:58:38
And so I was at my cousin's wedding. And all of a sudden, I had like four or five seizures. like seizures like 25-30 minute seizures holy shit and they didn't even know what to do with me in India because they were like because in India it's different it's not like oh every hospital they're going to treat you the same if you don't have money they ain't going to treat you so I ended up waking up in ICU strapped or strained to a bed wow no fuck Uh,

Matt Handy:
01:58:38 - 01:58:43
cause alcohol, obviously there's alcohol over there, but it's not like such a prevalent issue, right?

Apurva:
01:58:44 - 01:58:51
Oh, it's huge. It's just very, uh, it's the guys, the guys drink a lot, but girls generally do not.

Speaker 1:
01:58:51 - 01:58:52
Yeah.

Apurva:
01:58:52 - 01:59:24
Um, so, so I'm here, I am at my cousin's wedding at the first like thing and I'm having seizures and stuff and nobody knows what the fuck is happening. And my dad's like, what drugs is she on? You know, because like, and so he calls my ex and my sisters in pharmacy school. And she's like, she needs Librium. Like, somebody give her some Librium. They were like, what's Librium? They don't even have it over there? They do, but they'd have a chloropodexidine, right? But like,

Apurva:
01:59:24 - 01:59:44
they didn't know that was like what they needed to give me, you know, to help with the seizures. Because they didn't know what to do with alcohol seizures. Yeah. This is regular. So, yeah. So, I mean, and I got back and that was the first time I went to the council for recovery. My dad, like, straight up took me there and he was like, you need to go to rehab. How did he know about it?

Speaker 1:
01:59:45 - 01:59:46
I don't know.

Apurva:
01:59:46 - 01:59:59
He just was, like, online or something. Yeah. I'm assuming my sister, like, did some research and then they came back. And so, like, nobody left me alone. Like, I was not allowed to be by myself for the rest of the trip.

Speaker 1:
01:59:59 - 02:00:01
That's probably good.

Apurva:
02:00:01 - 02:00:19
Yeah. Except for when I was with my dad. because he drank. He drank. So I stayed in a hotel room with my dad the last week, and I'm not even joking. I started ordering room service and drinking beer and hiding the beers underneath the bed and Kingfisher and whatever I could.

Speaker 1:
02:00:21 - 02:00:21
That's so funny.

Apurva:
02:00:22 - 02:00:26
I know. I was like not even two weeks after seizures. Here I am back drinking.

Speaker 1:
02:00:26 - 02:00:27
That's crazy.

Speaker 1:
02:00:27 - 02:00:27
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:00:28 - 02:00:31
So you went to treatment three times, like back-to-back?

Apurva:
02:00:32 - 02:00:37
So I went to treatment the first time for 30 days. And then.

Matt Handy:
02:00:37 - 02:00:38
How long did you stay sober?

Speaker 1:
02:00:39 - 02:00:40
I didn't stay sober.

Speaker 1:
02:00:41 - 02:00:41
Okay.

Apurva:
02:00:41 - 02:01:10
I went to treatment for the 28 days to get probation off my back. And so, and then I kept getting caught. I got, you know, the shakes and all of that. I went through all of that. Because, like, I would time how much alcohol I could drink so I could pass the breathalyzer in the car. Like, I did it so I could have, like, six tall boys. And I'd still go to AA because I was made to go and get my paper signed. And then I would leave and I'd have four tall boys. And then I'd math.

Apurva:
02:01:10 - 02:01:41
Like I did some crazy math and, you know, computations to make sure I could pass and go to work the next day. And then, of course, I got caught again. And the judge was like, I'm fucking done with you. Like Judge Bilstein was like, you have done. He's like, your little innocent face is no longer. Because I'd be like, my boyfriend called me and then this was what happened. And then I had to drink, you know, like, you know, we're breaking up. And so he felt he had felt so bad and this and that.

Apurva:
02:01:41 - 02:02:10
And then finally, after like the sixth time, he was like, you're going to jail. Yeah. And I think that first time when he told the bailiff to, you know, just put me in that little jail or whatever, I was like, well, I need to tell my dad where I'm going, you know. And so like, oh, yes, the lawyer called my dad. And my dad was, he didn't even talk to me. And then the lawyer goes, your daughter is going to jail. We don't know when she's going to come out. He was like, okay, good. And hung up the phone.

Speaker 1:
02:02:12 - 02:02:12
I was like,

Apurva:
02:02:12 - 02:02:36
damn. Because he was fucking done. Like, done. And so we went. So then I went to jail. And I literally, I remember crying for the first time. Not because I knew I got caught again and I might be going to prison. because they were like, you're going to save pee like this then. Which is terrible, I hear.

Speaker 1:
02:02:36 - 02:02:36
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:02:37 - 02:03:08
And so when I was like, oh, my God, I wasn't even sad about going to that. I was like, oh, my God, I cannot do this by myself. It was that first time I was like, this is the defeat. This is it. I'm either going to stay sober or die. I can't do it by myself. I can't stay sober by myself. I need to have other people in my life because I thought if I hung out with sober people, like I could do, you know. Sober by osmosis. Yes. That didn't work out very well. Hardly ever does. No.

Apurva:
02:03:09 - 02:03:39
So I was supposed to pull chain and somehow my counselor at Braz's place, my treatment center out in Lake Jackson, my probation officer called him and was like, what do you think we should do with her? And he was like, give me 90 days. Don't send her to prison. Like the lights is flickering in there. It's just, I just need more time with her. And I was allowed to go to rehab again the second time. For 90 days?

Speaker 1:
02:03:40 - 02:03:40
For 90 days.

Matt Handy:
02:03:41 - 02:03:56
So that, I mean, when I hear stories like this, it's like, how did we end up in a situation where 28 days became the standard when we have proof that people need longer stays? Like there's very clear proof.

Apurva:
02:03:57 - 02:03:58
Because 30 days is not enough.

Matt Handy:
02:03:59 - 02:04:01
90 days is probably not enough.

Apurva:
02:04:01 - 02:04:07
90 days is, I mean, the only reason why I got through 75 was because I went to sober living after.

Matt Handy:
02:04:07 - 02:04:31
Yeah. Okay, see, and that's another thing is like it isn't standardized across the nation that it is also paid for as an auxiliary to treatment. And so like there are states where, like Florida, the whole Florida model is based off of sober living. There is basically no difference. People don't understand the difference between residential and sober living. There are people that think that they are in rehab, but they are in sober living.

Speaker 1:
02:04:32 - 02:04:33
Right?

Speaker 1:
02:04:33 - 02:04:33
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
02:04:33 - 02:04:33
I know.

Matt Handy:
02:04:33 - 02:04:43
And so what I said earlier around the exposure to the length of treatment dictates outcome. Right? But that's not the standard.

Apurva:
02:04:43 - 02:04:45
It's 28 days and then peace out.

Matt Handy:
02:04:45 - 02:04:57
Yeah, there is no like unless you're working, unless you get a commitment to stay within that company's continuum. Like, if you're like, oh, I'm going, if you're going to treatment in Arizona.

Speaker 1:
02:04:57 - 02:04:57
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:04:57 - 02:05:01
And then you're coming back to Houston, they don't even care. No. It's like, eh.

Speaker 1:
02:05:02 - 02:05:02
They'll be back.

Speaker 1:
02:05:02 - 02:05:03
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:05:03 - 02:05:22
I mean, like, we'll get more insurance out of it. Yeah. Like, I mean, that's the model, right? Yeah. Like, and it's, you know, and it's just people are dying out there. And I think more people, I feel, I mean, I don't have any studies or anything, but like, I feel more people have died after the 28 days, like, because their last, their next relapse sometimes is their last.

Matt Handy:
02:05:22 - 02:05:35
So with the introduction of fentanyl to the drug supply and all this stuff, the realistic part about the fentanyl situation is you're going to lower their tolerance for 28 days.

Speaker 1:
02:05:35 - 02:05:36
That's it.

Matt Handy:
02:05:36 - 02:05:39
And that is enough to really put them up.

Apurva:
02:05:39 - 02:05:42
Because they're next and they're like, oh, I could handle that much.

Matt Handy:
02:05:43 - 02:06:10
Even if they can't, like even if they know they can't, your exposure to the most minimal amount of fentanyl can kill you if you have no tolerance. Yeah. Like we're seeing those videos of like cops that are opening car doors and just the residual that's sitting, like they'll be smoking and there's like residual on the chairs and stuff. Yeah. And they'll start getting all that moving around and they're overdosing from just inhaling like residual.

Matt Handy:
02:06:12 - 02:06:22
So fentanyl is like extremely dangerous, right? And so with no commitment to like a lower level of care, this model does not work because they're not going to make it back.

Apurva:
02:06:22 - 02:06:30
No, that's like I've known way too many people that have died after 28 days than people that have actually stayed sober.

Matt Handy:
02:06:31 - 02:07:05
So I was in treatment for three or two years, eight months, right? It was a three-year residential commitment. And it took 18 months before I had like a real breakthrough. Right. And it was like, I don't even know how to explain it. Like basically what it came down to was like I needed that much time to like have my head cleared, kind of like accomplish a couple things and like build patterns around like healthy living. Absolutely. In order for me to like wake up one day and be like,

Matt Handy:
02:07:05 - 02:07:32
oh my gosh, like I haven't even thought about drugs in months, you know? And then there was like a little bit of room to like make some adjustments mentally that allowed me to like walk into the next phase of it, which was like a spirituality thing. Right. But it was 18 months. Yeah. It is very hard to condense 18 months of life lessons and clearing your head and like putting that much time between you and drugs into 28 days.

Apurva:
02:07:33 - 02:07:40
No, yeah. I, yeah, 28 days is not enough. That I can guarantee. Like, I don't even know why it's 28 days.

Matt Handy:
02:07:41 - 02:07:51
I don't know why either. I don't know how 28 days ended up becoming. Well, I get like, so seven day increments I get because you're justifying every seven days to get.

Apurva:
02:07:51 - 02:07:53
I guess. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Matt Handy:
02:07:53 - 02:07:59
So seven day increments makes sense. But how did we get stuck on 20? And for me,

Apurva:
02:07:59 - 02:08:14
my thinking was like 28 days because of that's actual treatment. And then like if they have like a little bit residual, like to find another place or something like that. Yeah. And so I mean, I don't know. I don't know what the higher ups. I mean, really what I think you're saying is what Dr.

Matt Handy:
02:08:14 - 02:08:17
Sean, I are saying is 28 days is a stabilization period.

Speaker 1:
02:08:18 - 02:08:18
Yeah,

Matt Handy:
02:08:18 - 02:08:43
that's really what it should be used for, because ultimately, like the magic that can happen in a treatment episode, it's going to happen in lower levels of care. It's going to happen in IOP probably. Right? But with no commitment to IOP if you're going to treatment out of state and you're coming back after treatment there is no like real concern for them to get you into a lower level because they're not going to benefit from it.

Matt Handy:
02:08:44 - 02:08:54
So they'll make the calls or whatever but it's really hard to do like a door-to-door warm handoff with a client that's going from California to Texas. It's doable.

Apurva:
02:08:54 - 02:09:03
I remember leaving treatment like, okay, well, the first thing you need to do is go to an AA meeting. And then they wouldn't tell us which meeting to go to. You know what I mean? I was just like, okay, well, there you go.

Matt Handy:
02:09:04 - 02:09:16
Well, and that's another part, right, is that, like, we are told that our decision-making is fucked up and that we can't make our own decisions. But then it's like, we are going to release you. Go make your own decisions. Correct.

Speaker 1:
02:09:17 - 02:09:17
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:09:17 - 02:09:18
And it's like...

Apurva:
02:09:18 - 02:09:48
It takes, like, for the people that I've seen that don't go to treatment and they try to get sober just in the rooms like that first 30 days like they're not they're barely speaking english you know what i'm saying you're just like please stop talking like just you put your you know put the cotton in your ear or in your mouth and just listen like that's all you can do you know you just don't drink and that 20 like then that's how i was done back in the day you know but like these like 30 days is nothing um 28 days

Apurva:
02:09:48 - 02:10:07
is nothing in a tree it's just literally like i'm just trying to learn how to make my bed, you know, right? Like just simple for me, it was like taking a shower every day. Like that was like, that was like my first thing. I was like, if I know that if I don't take a shower every day, then I'm like in relapse mode.

Speaker 1:
02:10:08 - 02:10:08
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:10:08 - 02:10:12
It was very simple. Like, like, I mean, that couldn't even function.

Matt Handy:
02:10:13 - 02:10:34
Yeah. My mentor and I, we, right now he's kind of on this kick where he's talking about, um, When people make changes in their lives, it's almost instinctual to try to make big changes, right? Like, okay, I'm going to get my life together and I'm going to create this plan and I'm going to do all of these things. And then you fail and then it's like,

Apurva:
02:10:34 - 02:10:35
okay, I'm going to drink.

Matt Handy:
02:10:35 - 02:10:56
You hit friction points, right? Like there are friction points in success that when it's like when you are spread thin, first of all, so it's like you're going to make all of these changes and you're going to do all this stuff. He tells people, look, I don't need you to change anything. I just need you to start waking up early, doing some pushups and eating a little bit better. Let's start there. Yeah. Right. As simple.

Matt Handy:
02:10:56 - 02:11:13
So it's the incremental tightening of the daily habits is what he says. Right. Incrementally, like really dialing stuff like piece by piece, like step by step. And it's like, but what we want to do is like, we're going to change everything. Of course. You know, and it's like.

Apurva:
02:11:13 - 02:11:46
We're going to move in with that guy because he looked at me funny and like, you know, we're hanging out every day and we're going to, I'm going to get the best job. And, you know, and, and I'm like, you know, and I'm like, I just try to like my, my sponsor, when I first really got serious about the program, she was like, you just need to do something at your parents' house. Cause I decided to move back to my parents after the second treatment. And then, so I was like, okay. Um, no, the third time I was like, okay, so what do I do? And she was like, okay, well,

Apurva:
02:11:47 - 02:12:16
take out the trash the day before trash day or do the dishes without them asking you to do the dishes or like do something she was like the biggest thing was like do not lie yeah and over like i would lie with stupid things like i didn't even know like and now i don't even know i can't not like at that point i was like i cannot not lie like everything was so fucked but now i'm like i don't even know how to lie or fib anymore like i just feel so bad i'm just like i don't yeah like And if I'm lying

Apurva:
02:12:16 - 02:12:22
about it, then, like, why should I lie about something? Like, there should be nothing in my life that, like, I'm not proud of at this point.

Matt Handy:
02:12:23 - 02:12:31
Very true. I tell people all the time that, like, addiction is illogical. A lot of what we did. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:12:31 - 02:12:32
Like,

Matt Handy:
02:12:32 - 02:12:51
if we, like, played the tape through all the way, like, the decisions that we were making were fucking insane. But recovery is the same way. Like a lot of the stuff, it's like anti-instinctual where it's like, well, I feel like I should be doing this. But for some reason, I'm like being told to do something really different.

Speaker 1:
02:12:51 - 02:12:51
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:12:52 - 02:12:56
And it's like, yeah, well, it's because our thinking is fucked up.

Apurva:
02:12:56 - 02:13:00
I know. I'm always like when I heard first thought wrong, I was like, oh,

Matt Handy:
02:13:00 - 02:13:03
that's the way. It's like the light turned on. Yeah.

Apurva:
02:13:04 - 02:13:09
I was like, oh, I was like the second. So the first two rehabs were at the same place.

Matt Handy:
02:13:11 - 02:13:41
and then of course I met a guy at the third at the second rehab but I had to stay sober because I did not want to go to safe P I just heard I had a guest on and he was talking about his safe P experience his whole life goal now is to develop a program to take down that program to get it shut down and do something better that's like his whole mission in life now It's like that bad.

Speaker 1:
02:13:41 - 02:13:42
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:13:43 - 02:13:48
Like, I can't even imagine how it is for guys versus, because girls I feel like maybe a little bit, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
02:13:48 - 02:13:49
I don't know.

Speaker 1:
02:13:49 - 02:13:49
I feel like,

Matt Handy:
02:13:49 - 02:13:58
I don't know, this is a hot take, right? I think that if girls are willing to be manipulative, life could be a lot easier for them.

Speaker 1:
02:13:59 - 02:13:59
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:
02:14:00 - 02:14:00
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:
02:14:02 - 02:14:03
But hey.

Speaker 1:
02:14:03 - 02:14:03
But hey.

Apurva:
02:14:05 - 02:14:15
So, yeah, so I meet the third boyfriend or whatever. His name was Donnie. And then, so I stayed sober.

Speaker 1:
02:14:16 - 02:14:17
He did not.

Apurva:
02:14:18 - 02:14:50
And that's actually, so how I met my husband is the first time I went to a meeting at Land of Lighters, he was there sharing. And like literally every other word was a cuss word. And I was like, why doesn't somebody give that guy a drink? Like he sounds horrible. Oh, that's right. He was angry at the time. He was so angry. Like everybody was throwing tootsie rolls at him to shut him up. Like if the chair looked at him wrong, like fuck that chair. It was like, I was like, oh my God, like please somebody help him. Like I'm not that bad. Like it was kind of like that.

Speaker 1:
02:14:51 - 02:14:51
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:14:51 - 02:15:13
And then like, and then I realized again and then like I, oh no, I didn't realize again. But like I started dating, me and Donnie started, you know, dating or whatever. And so he showed up drunk to one of the meetings. And as soon as he showed up, like, Richard and a couple of other dudes, like, took him to the back and was, like, you know, talking to him and everything. And I was like, oh, my God, this is really embarrassing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:15:13 - 02:15:14
Whatever.

Apurva:
02:15:15 - 02:15:25
So we dated for, like, and then so Richard became his sponsor. And we kind of all started, like, going to the 8 o'clock meetings, living in sober living and, you know, trying to do the things. Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:15:27 - 02:15:29
But everybody's fucking each other and,

Apurva:
02:15:29 - 02:15:55
like. Yeah. Well, me and Donnie were just fucking each other. I mean, we were dating. So we were together like, I don't know, 10, 11 months. But he kept relapsing and I stayed sober because I had to or else I was going to prison for like at least eight years. That's a good chunk of time. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to prison.

Matt Handy:
02:15:55 - 02:15:56
I've done like nine years total.

Speaker 1:
02:15:57 - 02:15:57
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:15:58 - 02:15:59
And it's like, that's a fucking.

Apurva:
02:15:59 - 02:16:39
I've done 30 in county between like Harris County. Days. Yeah. Total. No, I was going every weekend. So probably total six months like in the last, you know, before I got sober, sober. So when Donnie and I like, you know, whatever. So his last relapse, I knew he was going to die. Like he was a vet. He suffered from PTSD. VA didn't help him, you know, the whole thing. Yeah, they rarely do. So he ended up meeting, he was in, I took him to the psych ward of the VA like at least five times.

Apurva:
02:16:40 - 02:16:48
And I just watched him go through all of this and watched his family go through and watch me go through, you know, feeling all the feels.

Matt Handy:
02:16:49 - 02:16:57
Do you, like looking back on it now, like, do you just like chaotic relationships? Oh,

Apurva:
02:16:58 - 02:17:02
yeah. I'm addicted to chaos. Yeah. Hence my life now. Like, it's completely chaotic. Is it?

Speaker 1:
02:17:02 - 02:17:03
Oh,

Speaker 1:
02:17:03 - 02:17:03
yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:17:03 - 02:17:04
But it's great.

Apurva:
02:17:05 - 02:17:19
Yeah. It's because of me. Like, it's a good chaotic. So he met some dude at the psych ward at the VA and ended up getting a motel room. And he did heroin for the first time and died. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:17:20 - 02:17:20
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:17:26 - 02:18:01
That's... and his brother and i was like why in the world did this happen again did you did you like warn your husband like hey you might die yeah if you date me yeah well so richard the husband was my first phone call like after i had to identify him i called richard okay um because i was like i don't know what to do yeah and he was like well you just come like come meet us at starbucks like right now yeah because you know they were like you know he was like she's gonna drink he was like well what are you

Apurva:
02:18:01 - 02:18:28
doing right at this exact second i was like i'm staring at a miller light 18 wheeler truck i was literally at the gas station and he's like don't you dare go in that gas station i was like well i need to get gas he was like well you can get gas at the gas pump yeah and then or he was like and i was like what i need cigarettes too and he was like okay well then you take me like i'll talk to you the whole time while you're getting cigarettes and so I had to go to Clear Lake Do you smoke still? No.

Apurva:
02:18:29 - 02:18:50
So I have to go to Clear Lake and tell his mom and his dad, his parents were divorced so his dad lived in Sugar Land and so I went to his mom first and told his brother and that was probably one of the hardest things because like here I am, I'm fucking sober sober as a judge.

Apurva:
02:18:50 - 02:19:20
I relapsed in my brain like as soon as I got off of probation but I didn't pick up yeah um and then I got my one-year chip and then I relapsed four days later and I was like yeah I was like I've lost two boyfriends and you know like fuck it yeah so I just started living in hotel rooms I still had a job um but I was just drinking every day, all day, every day. And how long did that last for? Two and a half months.

Speaker 1:
02:19:21 - 02:19:21
Okay.

Speaker 1:
02:19:21 - 02:19:22
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:19:23 - 02:19:50
I thought I was going to do the control drinking. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I'll just have two beers and then like go back and do whatever. Yeah, that didn't work out. I was, I literally quit my job like the week of my birthday in December. And I was like, I'm done. Like, I just want to die in a motel room and just let everybody like be peaceful without me. That's just where I was. I was done. And then, thank God, you know, I was in the program, right? So, like, of course, you know,

Apurva:
02:19:50 - 02:20:01
the people in the program, you know, one of the girls did a 12-step call. And I ended up in rehab for the third time. And then I've stayed sober since.

Speaker 1:
02:20:02 - 02:20:02
And that was 28 days?

Speaker 1:
02:20:04 - 02:20:04
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:20:06 - 02:20:06
Okay.

Apurva:
02:20:06 - 02:20:37
But I think emotionally, like internally, I was just, I didn't really think I needed rehab. I just needed somewhere to go. Lick your wounds. Yeah, just for 28 days where I don't have any responsibilities of, and I could stay away from alcohol, you know. So, like they got me on some antidepressants and all. They thought it was my, like I was like, I don't think I'm any of these things, but okay. Well, that's a whole thing. Yeah, which is a whole different. Yeah. Like, and then,

Apurva:
02:20:37 - 02:21:09
so finally, eventually, I just got, I stopped taking the antidepressants. And, like, I was just, and so I just started working the program. Yeah. Meeting every day, twice a day, if not more. I didn't get a job. I mean, I was lucky because I decided to move back in with my parents. And then my sponsor I met at the Oxford House, who's, she's still, like, we're still friends to this day. She was at my wedding and everything. But I chose her. I asked her to be my sponsor because, like,

Apurva:
02:21:09 - 02:21:18
I knew I couldn't lie to her. That was the big, that was the game changer was that I, like, I knew I didn't want to drink anymore. But I didn't trust myself.

Matt Handy:
02:21:19 - 02:21:21
I mean, yeah. How long did you not want to drink for?

Speaker 1:
02:21:21 - 02:21:22
Oh,

Speaker 1:
02:21:22 - 02:21:22
like,

Speaker 1:
02:21:22 - 02:21:23
forever.

Speaker 1:
02:21:23 - 02:21:23
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:21:24 - 02:21:32
Until, you know, once it started, like, kicking my butt, you know. I mean, brown people don't turn colors. And, like, I was yellow.

Matt Handy:
02:21:32 - 02:21:37
Yeah. I never got tested. I don't know. Am I brown? Would you say I'm brown?

Speaker 1:
02:21:37 - 02:21:37
Yeah,

Speaker 1:
02:21:37 - 02:21:38
ish.

Matt Handy:
02:21:38 - 02:21:39
Okay. I'm Vietnamese.

Speaker 1:
02:21:40 - 02:21:40
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:21:41 - 02:21:47
And I'm like super allergic to alcohol. Like you look tan. Yeah. Like super allergic. When I drink, I get bright red.

Speaker 1:
02:21:47 - 02:21:48
Oh,

Speaker 1:
02:21:48 - 02:21:48
nice.

Matt Handy:
02:21:48 - 02:21:50
It's fucked up. It's like so uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:
02:21:52 - 02:21:52
You're like raw.

Matt Handy:
02:21:52 - 02:22:02
Yeah. Well, and it's very uncomfortable to the point of like almost being painful and like itchy and just I fucking hate drinking.

Speaker 1:
02:22:03 - 02:22:03
Oh.

Matt Handy:
02:22:03 - 02:22:10
And I go from stone cold sober to passed out drunk in like three beers, two beers.

Speaker 1:
02:22:10 - 02:22:10
Oh.

Matt Handy:
02:22:11 - 02:22:13
I have like no tolerance for it.

Apurva:
02:22:13 - 02:22:16
Nice. Yeah, I wish I had that. No,

Matt Handy:
02:22:16 - 02:22:20
it's bad. I mean, I don't know. But then I'm like,

Apurva:
02:22:20 - 02:22:23
but then you start where you were shooting up and stuff. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 1:
02:22:24 - 02:22:24
Yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:22:25 - 02:22:26
I mean.

Matt Handy:
02:22:26 - 02:22:32
I might not have been on the needle. No. I definitely would have still been on a needle for a long time.

Apurva:
02:22:33 - 02:22:45
You know, I look back and I was thinking, like, if I was still, if Ryan was still alive and we were still doing the thing, like, I think I would have eventually injected, started, like, injecting stuff. Like, I always snorted and stuff.

Matt Handy:
02:22:45 - 02:22:47
Have you ever met anybody that injected coke?

Apurva:
02:22:49 - 02:22:50
I know. But the heroin.

Matt Handy:
02:22:51 - 02:22:53
Yeah. So injecting coke is not fun.

Apurva:
02:22:54 - 02:23:04
No. I mean, I just, I would never, like, I figured, like, I was just, that would be my next. The progression would be, yeah. Like, would be, like, I would be injecting something. I don't know what, but nothing good.

Matt Handy:
02:23:04 - 02:23:05
It happens quick, yeah.

Apurva:
02:23:06 - 02:23:06
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:23:06 - 02:23:11
It happens pretty quick. Because I know he did. Yeah. Oh, if he did, for sure. Yeah,

Apurva:
02:23:11 - 02:23:13
but he didn't inject with me ever.

Speaker 1:
02:23:14 - 02:23:14
Yeah.

Apurva:
02:23:14 - 02:23:17
But we did a lot of snorting and yeah.

Speaker 1:
02:23:18 - 02:23:18
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:23:19 - 02:23:27
Yeah. Well, he wouldn't have, yeah, it wouldn't have been injecting Coke. Because if it was fun, you would have seen him do it. It is not fun. Yeah.

Apurva:
02:23:28 - 02:23:30
Like, I really liked X. That was like out of everything.

Speaker 1:
02:23:31 - 02:23:31
Like,

Apurva:
02:23:31 - 02:23:33
if it's heroin-based X, like, I was like.

Matt Handy:
02:23:33 - 02:23:35
Oh, yeah. And, like, purples and blues and shit.

Speaker 1:
02:23:35 - 02:23:36
Yeah.

Matt Handy:
02:23:37 - 02:23:49
I got over ecstasy was, like, when I was doing, like, up to 15, 17 pills a weekend. I got over that quick. Because the comedown off that is so terrible. So hard.

Apurva:
02:23:49 - 02:23:53
Yeah. I only did, like, one or two. And I was, like,

Speaker 1:
02:23:54 - 02:23:55
for,

Speaker 1:
02:23:55 - 02:23:55
like,

Speaker 1:
02:23:56 - 02:23:56
three days.

Matt Handy:
02:23:56 - 02:24:26
Oh, no, dude. It would be like laying in bed trying to just – okay, the hollow feeling, that's where – like you'll never feel more hollow than after like a weekend of like really hard rolling. It is the worst feeling. Yeah. I was a low-taller. Apparently. I've kicked heroin – I don't know if I could honestly like estimate how many times. I've probably kicked heroin 50 times.

Matt Handy:
02:24:27 - 02:25:03
and you could put all of those kicks together and it still never felt as bad as like coming off Ecstasy it's terrible yeah it's terrible well okay it's been we're coming up on three hours oh my god Jesus we talk a lot I appreciate your time that was fun thanks for listening to My Last Relapse I'm Matt Handy the founder of Harmony Grove Behavioral Health, Houston, Texas, where our mission is to provide compassionate, evidence-based care for anyone facing addiction,

Matt Handy:
02:25:04 - 02:25:37
mental health challenges, and co-occurring disorders. Find out more at HarmonyGroveBH.com. Follow and subscribe to My Last Relapse on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you like to stream podcasts. Got a question for us? Leave a message or voicemail at MyLastRelapse.com. If you're feeling overwhelmed or struggling, you don't have to face it alone. Reaching out for support is a sign of strength and help is always available. If you or anyone you know needs help, give us a call 24 hours a day at 888-691-8295.