Life After Getting Hooked on Pills at 13, OD’ing on Tylenol, & Conceiving My Son on LSD at Ren Fest

Jess (00:00.876)
The thing that's hard too though is he would tell me, wish you were still an addict. You were more cuddly then. And I'm like, yeah, cause I'll let you do whatever the fuck you wanted. So that's been hard. I spoiled him and now I'm having to deal with what I did with him being a spoiled entitled little shit.

Matt (00:20.75)
I'm Matt Handy and you're listening to My Last Relapse. We are on Jessica. Hi. Jessica Dawson, right? Yes, sir. Okay, well thank you for coming on and I appreciate your time. Thank you. We met, like, I reached out to you first. Yes. And then we found out that you are going through a very similar thing with your suboxone. Correct. Okay. So we're going to touch on that for sure, but where do you want to start?

Jess (00:49.774)
Childhood, I guess. I went to 10 different schools. So this is a lot. So I feel like I had three different lifetimes basically. So I started out in Quah Valley in Missouri City and my dad's an alcoholic. So I guess my first memories are, know, my mom trying to find him, go up to his job with me, my brother and my sister, had a newborn baby with her, go up to his job and he's, you know.

and Austin for the weekend, didn't even leave her with the car. She had to find out from his manager, you know? So that was my first impression of him from what I can remember. I don't remember the earliest stuff, but I dealt with it the most between my brother and my sister. And then, yes, I'm the oldest. And so you know how that goes if you're the oldest. Okay, then you know. Another responsibility and what they expect from you.

Matt (01:37.357)
oldest.

Matt (01:42.2)
Well, that's the ten.

Yeah.

Jess (01:49.766)
I was the one who wanted peace. I wanted to make everybody happy. I was the perfectionist. Tried to make everybody laugh, you know? So I tried to hide all of my pain so that did not end up well for me. and then my dad went to prison for two years from a DWI. So then when he got out, him and my mom got divorced because he was an alcoholic.

Matt (02:14.606)
Okay, how old are you at this point? Six.

Jess (02:17.398)
And then my mom met my stepdad. And then my mom and my stepdad, my stepdad had two boys, but he had adopted a little girl.

Matt (02:27.182)
Okay.

Jess (02:29.217)
And so.

Matt (02:30.432)
Adopted out of the last marriage or just adopt. Okay

Jess (02:33.614)
out of the last marriage. So then with him and my mom together, there were three boys and three girls. One of them's older than me, the girl is. That was insane. Insane.

Matt (02:42.062)
Okay, how did that work? How did the not being the oldest sibling work after that?

Jess (02:50.542)
I was we were only a year apart. So okay, we were kind of good friends at the beginning Then she got mental issues and was diagnosed with a split personality So we went we moved to Kingwood from humble Okay, and when we went to Kingwood, I was doing competitive dance and swim team My mom got them into it treated them like they were her own children. She was very fair So then she said her dad her new stepdad

Matt (02:55.736)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (03:20.418)
with his old wife, molested her. So she moved in with us. But then she said my stepdad molested her while I was asleep in the bed with her. But I stood up for her, and I mean for him, and I was like, no, he wouldn't have done that. I would have known if that happened. So we go, we move away and we like disown her from our life, but we went on this trip to the Grand Canyon. She was like slitting her wrist in front of us.

Matt (03:31.658)
Okay.

Jess (03:49.634)
My mom took a butcher knife and was like, if you're gonna do that in front of my six year old, then you better just kill yourself. You're just doing this for attention. shit got crazy, yes. So we go to the Grand Canyon.

Matt (03:58.926)
Okay, shit got crazy.

Matt (04:03.806)
How did that affect you?

Jess (04:06.018)
Well, I mean, obviously my voice is shaking right now because I'm nervous, but...

Matt (04:11.256)
You're good, trust me, this is a safe place.

Jess (04:13.806)
Okay, so let me sit back. There we go. So my depression was, you know, that's when it started. I started to get anxiety because she was telling my friends all these lies at school. And, you know, she was just trying to do everything to do anything, you know? So like bringing girls over to say she was gay just for shock factor and just doing different things since she was diagnosed with a split personality, but she, you know, she didn't know who her real family was.

Matt (04:44.114)
So did she ever like manifest that in like a... Could you see the dichotomy of the personalities? So it was like cool sister, bad sister.

Jess (04:50.786)
Yes, I could.

Jess (04:55.054)
Yeah, crazy. So it was very different for me. But also, down the line, then we moved to the middle of nowhere. And we disowned her. So we in between Cleveland and Livingston. So that was like culture shock for me. So then dance was gone, then swim team was gone. They didn't have that out there. So I was like, I went to a work tour and I was one of those kids who loved all the skater brands and...

I wanted to date a skater boy, Avril Lavigne in fifth grade. 36.

Matt (05:29.068)
Yeah, yeah, we're we're yeah. Yeah, I went through all the same

Jess (05:32.462)
I'm Blink 182, and so I went to work tour every year. And so the kids I met out in the country were not the country kids. I hung out with the Stoners. No figure.

Matt (05:44.462)
Wait, Ohio? Like Slipknot Kids? Yes.

Jess (05:46.764)
Yeah, yeah, exactly But anyway, so then I started hanging out with these kids and I thought they're so cool I want to be just like them Yeah, and so I bought you know started I was wearing the trip pants then so people in this country school called me a gothic douchebag Yeah, they would make nooses and hang my blinquin 82 posters from a noose. Yeah, it was Ridiculous. I it was another world to me. Yes. I'm from this town where there's

Matt (05:56.994)
Yeah, which they were.

Jess (06:16.622)
people of color. And I go to this town where it's just white people and I didn't even know racism still existed then. So it was crazy. So I tried to tell everybody, no, you got to find out who these people are before you judge them. You can't just be like, no, I don't like them because of their color. That's just how you were raised and how your parents raised you. But anyway, so then we move out there. Well, I didn't know my stepsisters mom was from out there. So my first day at school,

Matt (06:18.166)
Yeah.

Matt (06:32.109)
Yeah.

Matt (06:43.918)
Jess (06:46.708)
We had this girl's like, finally met my real sister. She's passing around a picture of her and the picture gets to me and it's my step sister. I'm like, what the fuck? So anyway, so I have to see this girl that looks just like her every day. So it brings back the memories all the time. So now I'm 13. We would watch a movie every Friday night. Yeah. And I fell asleep on air mattress with my stepdad.

Matt (06:57.965)
Yeah.

Matt (07:06.519)
Okay.

Jess (07:16.834)
Well, woke up in the middle of the night to him spooning me, thrusting his dick on me. So I told my mom, but my mom made me tell her in front of him. So then I locked myself in the bathroom for two hours after that. Well, come to find out when I was 23, he was doing stuff to my little sister her whole life. So the stuff about my stepsister was probably true. And I felt.

Matt (07:20.631)
Yeah.

Matt (07:27.064)
Yeah.

Matt (07:38.606)
Okay.

Jess (07:45.452)
horrible for not knowing and for not sticking up for her. So one day we went to a work tour and I took Adderall. My family friend Claire, she introduced me to Xanax that night. I took a Xanax and I finally felt like I could breathe because I have anxiety really bad, obviously. And so I was like, my God, this is what I've been missing. So from there.

Matt (07:49.198)
Yeah.

Jess (08:11.36)
started self-medicating and my best friend's mom had, you know, a prescription to 90 Xanax, bunch of somas, all kinds of pills. So we would steal them from her all the time. And that was it. Every weekend I was taking Xanax, going to concerts and getting barred out, drinking. Then it got to where I moved in with my stepdad and my mom when we moved to the Woodlands after being out in the country. I took 11 Xanax, drove from

client area where we live now to the Woodlands on 11 Xanax and passed out in my food. My mom punched me and I was like, I'm going to go live with my dad. So woke up the next morning, started getting ready for school. My stepdad's like, hey, what are you doing? I was like, this is before we knew he molested my sister. And I was like, well, I guess I'm going to go to school. He's like, I thought you were moving in with your dad. Well, I didn't want to admit. I didn't remember what I said.

So I went with it and said, well, yeah, I guess I'm going to go to school though. But then I'm going to College Park. I get there and I'm like, wait, why am I going to school if I'm moving? So I turn around and the security guard chases me. I drive off, drive all the way downtown to Westheimer and Fountainview, wake up and didn't remember the past two days. But I had to live with my choices. So because I didn't want my mom to know that I was, didn't remember what I said and that I didn't mean it.

So, and then my dad is gay and I found out he was gay by my stepdad at a swim meet. My stepdad would bash him, talk shit about it, and told me my dad was gay at a swim meet of all places before I'm about to go race. So I got mad about it and was like, no, he's not, you know? And I don't even know why I got mad because I never wanted to go be with my dad because he was never there, but he would come take us out on Wednesday nights. But...

So I would go to his house, but he always lived with my meemaw in Highlands and I didn't want to go out there. The house felt weird to me, wasn't comfortable. And with him being an alcoholic, I just remembered him trying to hit my mom and abuser and do that kind of stuff. So I didn't want to be there. So anyway, but I don't know why I cared about him being gay so much. I don't care now. I love it. anyway, so down the line, I go to live with my dad.

Jess (10:31.966)
and I start going to Lamar High School. And now I'm just taking Xanax, I'm on the drill team, but I'm still taking Xanax and still smoking weed and doing all that. But then I start doing coke and harder things. And luckily I never got into shooting up really. I've done that a couple times, but only in my 20s.

Matt (10:53.004)
Never got into it really.

Jess (10:55.054)
Well, like, I did it once or twice, but I had a really bad experience. They missed the vein and I couldn't move my arm for a week. And they were supposed to shoot me up with heroin and it was meth. Yeah. So, yeah. And I only did that because I was on 5xanax. Had I not been on xanax, I would have never done any of the things I did.

Matt (11:00.907)
yeah, that's fucked.

Matt (11:04.794)
that's even more fucked up.

Dude, that hurts so...

Matt (11:15.79)
Yeah, I had a friend in high school, like, it was just a mess. All the football kids were on steroids and drugs and like, I played water polo and swam and we were all just, everybody was tattooed. Like at 16. And then we lived down the street from the recording studio where like everybody was mastering their albums. So like, Blink was record, actually I used to go bowling with those dudes a bunch. What? Yeah, yeah. So.

It was in San Marcos of San Diego and this was like a mecca for not just metal but like hardcore at the time. this kid robbed his best friend and then dropped his cell phone at his best friend's house. So they knew what happened and they went to go find him. They couldn't find him. They found he'd hung himself at his parents house and they did the autopsy and the doctor said he was on so much Xanax he probably

has no clue that he did it.

Jess (12:11.67)
Yeah, probably not. I committed suicide. Well, I'm getting there. So, then I met this guy, Sean. And he was like... Always Sean. Yeah, he looked like the lead singer of Lamb of God. He was so hot. You know, I had to be with him.

Matt (12:30.19)
Do you remember when he went to prison?

Jess (12:31.822)
Yes. I was with Sean at the time. Really? Yeah.

Matt (12:36.782)
had a friend, like Sean Hoffarth, he was one of my best friends and he's who I overdosed with three days after I got out of prison.

Jess (12:43.224)
Damn. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I went to rehab at 21 at the right step. So then this shot when I got out of rehab, we go to see, I don't know if you remember the big four, but it was like Pantera and Slayer, was in the theater. So that day I got out, we went to go see that and he snuck off and got Jagerbomb shots or Jager shots. And I was like, what the fuck? So of course I go.

and get shots and there went my sobriety. Well, no, I was 20. So I was like, of course I'm going to drink because I wasn't 21 yet. So I wasn't taking it seriously.

Matt (13:22.232)
day you got out of treatment, you went to the concert and relapsed. Yeah, that's statistically accurate.

Jess (13:27.622)
Yeah So then and then before that happened though why I ended up in rehab was I took a bunch of He threatened to break up with me and I was on Xanax and I took a bunch of ibuprofen like I mean, but I took not ibuprofen like the powdery white Tylenol like the old And just took poured it all out like a handful and took it all and went out there

Matt (13:48.482)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, non-coded one.

Jess (13:56.97)
My mouth was covered in powdered white and he was like, I think we need to go to the hospital. I just took a bunch of medicine. He's like, okay, let's go. And they had to give me the black charcoal and do all that. Woke up and they're like, we did everything we could to save your life. And they were like trying to make it serious to me, like, don't do this again. They wouldn't let me leave. They're like, you have choices. You can either go to rehab or that's why I ended up at the right stuff.

Matt (14:23.768)
Yeah.

Jess (14:24.984)
So I go to rehab and then when I get out I did that. And then Sean moved me to Kerrville. That was no. I was crying all the time, miserable. I'm a city girl. Did not like it.

Matt (14:36.014)
I have a friend out there right now. Really? Yeah, he owns a rehab. It's called the Hopper House. He's awesome. Chris Hopper.

Jess (14:41.271)
yeah, I have.

So anyway, so yeah, so I move out there and then move back here, start cleaning beach houses in Crystal Beach with my friend, the friend that I met in high school with her mom that has all the pills. So yeah, so I go back to Crystal Beach, her mama was a cleaning business, start cleaning with her, back to taking all the pills from her. Then I'm like, okay, your mom will not stop telling us what to do, we gotta get out of here.

I'm like, I'm used to working at fine dining restaurants. We can make our own money. Let's go move back in the city. So we moved back in the city. So met Kirby and Westheimer at Avalon Square. And man, I am just going to work, getting drunk, taking pills. I pay my bills, but that's it. Everything else is about getting money for pills. That's it. That's all I cared about because of a breakup.

Matt (15:19.918)
Houston City?

Matt (15:38.158)
There are people fucking rich off of us out there so I was at a I was at a car dealership two weekends ago and this I have a two-month-old and I have like this baby carrier and This chick walks up to me and she's got I told you about this right? She had like one of those beanies on with the strings and the you know Okay, she's got uggs that go up to like her shins. Mm-hmm. And then this

Jess (15:42.581)
Right?

Jess (16:02.456)
the little top thing.

Matt (16:07.918)
bright red overcoat thing, totally looks like an alcoholic. She like walks up to me and she's like, can I touch your baby? And it's like, alcohol. She works there, right? She sells cars, right? She just smashed. I was like, what? Like how do

Jess (16:21.889)
god.

Jess (16:28.148)
You can't touch my baby, but no I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, I know you're be nice

Matt (16:32.814)
grabbed her foot, she was like, your baby is energy. I was like so fucking drunk.

Jess (16:38.446)
Yeah, well at least she was like sweet about it. Yeah. Your baby's energy. That's cool. I believe in energy, so I'm not religious, so I'm more about like spiritual. That's why AA was so hard for me. Yeah, believing in God, that thing. God, they'll all throw out it. I was like, uh-uh, I don't want to go there to that cult.

Matt (16:52.119)
Okay.

Matt (17:00.012)
Yeah, I mean, it's a hurdle for sure.

Jess (17:04.224)
Yeah, it was a hurdle for me until somebody finally got it through my head. You know, you can believe in whatever you want. I'm like, okay, I can do Mother Earth, you know?

Matt (17:12.268)
Yeah, is that what you like decided? Yeah. And how long has that been a thing?

Jess (17:17.047)
my, like, since past 10 years, you know, I've always been, like, spiritual and witchy, you know? So, I have my stones and all that.

Matt (17:26.293)
You are out in the cornfield with the slipknot kids. Okay, where do you want to go from here?

Jess (17:28.92)
Yeah.

Jess (17:32.974)
Okay, so I am now let's go to me meeting my husband. So I'm at Avalon Square, go to gay pride parade and I'm- They have that here? Yeah, every year. Anyway, so I go every year because my brother's gay, my sister's gay, my dad's gay. I'm the one straight person in my family. You know, it's usually the other way around. Yeah, I'm the oddball.

Matt (17:52.504)
Yeah, you're the on-ball.

Jess (17:54.766)
So then I go to a gay pride parade, I'm not looking to meet anybody, but that's when it happens. And then I'm like, hey dude, can I come sit under your tent? They won't let me drink this alcohol. Right, correct. Well, he's, I mean, yeah, he's I get it. Yeah, anyway. So he was just like supporting his people as well. So anyway, so we meet and then we get married. I got pregnant six months later. And then we get engaged.

Matt (18:21.026)
You're still fucked up.

Jess (18:22.126)
Yes. Oh, but I'm only taking like a quarter of Xanax now and that's when I got pregnant. I thought I couldn't get pregnant because I was a whore on Xanax.

Matt (18:29.603)
Yeah.

Matt (18:35.394)
Well, you think.

Jess (18:36.91)
I think. And so, well, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Some of it.

Matt (18:41.198)
You remember some of it? The feeling, you remember the feeling after for sure.

Jess (18:47.726)
I remember waking up and being like, who the fuck is this? Anyway, so then I meet him and I'm doing good. I'm not drinking really. I'm taking a quarter of a Xanax if I do drink just red wine. I'm doing better because I want to be good for him. And I got really fucked up at a club and embarrassed him. So I'm trying to do better. And then we went to a Renaissance festival, took acid. Pretty sure my son was conceived then.

So then, and I was conceived on acid. yeah, and I was conceived on acid from my mom and dad, so it's kind of funny. But anyway, so then I'm pregnant and I was able to quit everything, luckily, for my pregnancy. When it involved another person, I was able to quit it all. And I went to therapy and they were like, you know how lucky you are? Some people have to go to rehab to have their babies. I was like, what?

Matt (19:20.599)
in the woods.

Matt (19:44.14)
Yeah.

Jess (19:45.92)
Because that was like insane to me and I was like, what?

Matt (19:48.566)
Yeah, I'm about to interview this nurse practitioner who is rapid detox induction for pregnant women on fentanyl. wow. And she gives them Suboxone. Yeah. And puts them in precipitated withdrawal and then like just monitors them for that eight hours. That's great. And she hasn't lost any kids yet. Yeah, it's crazy.

Jess (20:08.526)
That's amazing. I know it's crazy, but I it wasn't like that, but I'm glad she's there for them.

Matt (20:16.894)
Yeah.

Jess (20:19.042)
because pregnancy is just wild. So, yeah. so I was sober for then. But then I had my son and I got postpartum. And I'm like, hey, now I can go get benzos legally. So then I go and I'm like, have anxiety, I'm freaking out, say all the right things I'm supposed to say. And I'm like, the SSRIs, I really did try every SSRI and it really didn't work for me. And so they put me on Ativan. And so I keep it.

Matt (20:32.014)
Jess (20:48.726)
in check except for, you know, for my family that I'm out of control. And I just tell everybody else, it's fine. I'm fine. Everything's okay. Everything's fine. And my husband wanted to open marriage, but I didn't really want that. But I'm taking Xanax and I want to give him what he wants. it made me more promiscuous. So I'm having sex with other guys too in my marriage. And

Matt (20:54.85)
Yeah.

Jess (21:18.39)
He wasn't having sex with other girls. He did once, but I couldn't handle it. I was too jealous and I was like, nope. But he liked that. He liked hearing about me having sex with other guys. So then I got pregnant from another guy. And I was doing meth for two days and he left my son there with me when this happened. And my son is like six at the time. And that was it for me. And then I wrecked with my son that same weekend.

My mom called CPS and yeah, I stopped everything right then. Did everything I was supposed to do. I started going to meetings. I moved in with my mom and sister here in the Heights. Started going to an NA meeting. And once again, I was able to stay sober because I was pregnant. But then I go to Colorado to go get an abortion. My brother lives in Denver. So I go there to get the abortion and I'm staying with my brother.

Matt (22:05.4)
Yeah.

Matt (22:09.618)
okay.

Jess (22:17.454)
And I had to go through that pretty much alone, because he had to sleep and his boyfriend worked nights. So I went through this abortion alone by myself, basically. And that was pretty scary.

Matt (22:29.038)
Okay, what was your husband saying?

Jess (22:31.596)
My husband kicked me out.

Matt (22:33.198)
Okay, so he wasn't really saying anything.

Jess (22:34.862)
because it was people who weren't approved that I slept with. But this is my first relationship like that. So I wasn't used to these rules. I don't know. I was like, what do you mean? You want me to fuck other people, but these people aren't okay? Anyway, so I was like, so I'm pregnant and freaking the fuck out and go to live with my mom and my sister, go to Colorado, get the abortion, come back and relapse.

Matt (22:48.919)
Yeah.

Matt (23:01.25)
Yeah.

Jess (23:01.902)
get my prescription filled. like, hey, I may not have a car, I can get it transferred to the Walgreens at their house. I already made the plan in my head before I even left to Colorado. Yeah. Got back, did it, filled it, and then took my sister's shrimp chocolate out of the fridge. Took that. I took more out of anything I've ever taken in my life. My mother chased me around the apartment, beating the shit out of me, her and my sister. My dad and his husband were watching and said that they were being like crazy, like beating the shit out of me.

And I wake up, my head's so fucking sore from them punching me in the head. And my husband's like, you gotta go to rehab. You have to go to rehab. That's it. It's the only way I'm gonna stay with you. Or if we even have a chance. So I go to rehab. I go to Brazos Place. They saved my life. I the greatest counselor. So that was amazing. She was really big on cognitive therapy. She wasn't religious and thank God they asked me about religion.

and did not give me the lady who was always quoting Bible verses, because I've never even read the Bible. And thank God I got the counselor I did. So.

Matt (24:07.714)
Yeah. Strategic clinical alignment.

Jess (24:11.438)
It really was. So then I start doing good. I'm believing, you know, I'm believing in my, I'm praying. I'm doing better. I'm actually doing these things. I get out, get a sponsor, start working the steps. I'm in sober living. But the day I get out, my husband said he called a lawyer and he's filing for divorce the day I got out of rehab. And he didn't even do a video call with my son while I was there for 42 days. I could only talk to my son on Saturdays for like 10 minutes. I was crying nonstop every day like,

I had never been away from my son. So this was like pure hell to me, you know? So, but I did it. I got out, went to Sober Living. And then it wasn't a mother and children home right away though that I went to. I didn't want my, I thought they were going to be like ghetto and gross. didn't want my son to like see anything because luckily I'd kept him shielded for most of it. Well, I forgot to say one part. So we did a playdate.

And I took an Oxy, what I thought was an Oxy, it was fentanyl. This was a year before I went to the Braco's place. And luckily, it was right time, right place. Thank God this girl was cool. She was a medic. She gave me CPR, noticed that I was passed out, and said that I was under the sign that the symbol meant breathe. And she was like, it was so weird, because I was trying to get you air. And she called the EMTs.

She kept her older son to keep my son upstairs so he didn't see anything. Thank God. So then I get, I end up in the hospital. My husband wouldn't even come get me from the hospital. So I had to hitch a ride from somebody that I didn't even know. I still fucked up though when I left the hospital. Then a year later that shit happened with the guys and the meth and all that and getting pregnant. So then I'm in rehab to get out sober living. And then I find an add-a-van at sober living. What?

Yeah, one of my Ativan and my stuff. Like, I'm always hiding pills. I'm always hiding my pills and forgetting where they're at, you know? So, find an Ativan and my shit on the ground, and man, do I wanna fucking take it. But I held onto it for a day, and I was reading my big book, and this part happened, and I turned it in. But then they say, well, since you turned the pill in too late and you held onto it.

Matt (26:05.598)
okay. All right.

Jess (26:30.35)
You're obviously still craving stuff. So they gave me like old tomato meat there. You go to the heroes program to see if you need to get on suboxone because they lied and said it was an opioid and it wasn't, it was Ativan or Valium. But anyway, they said that it wasn't that it was an oxy. The house people like the president, the president. No, this is nobody. This is a girl at the house. She doesn't have anything. She's not a doctor. So she tells me to go to the heroes program and I can't get kicked out.

Matt (26:46.659)
Who's Day?

like the

Jess (26:59.822)
because they said they're going to kick me out if I didn't go.

Matt (27:03.49)
And you got all this shit over your head. Yeah. Yeah.

Jess (27:05.91)
And have a kid so I can't get kicked out. And so I'm like, okay, so I go to the Heroes program, they put me on Suboxone because of me taking that pill and it being fentanyl. They're like, okay, well you meet the criteria, let's put you on Suboxone. So they put me on it and now I just wanna get off of it. Because I don't think, I think it's just making my anxiety and my depression worse.

Matt (27:22.371)
Yeah.

Matt (27:30.658)
Yeah, I mean, have you researched Suboxone at all? No. Have you, how long have you been on it? Okay, and... Okay, and are you doing it in conjunction with therapy? Okay, like same prescriber and therapist? No. Yeah, Suboxone. Suboxone probably saved my life.

Jess (27:37.154)
A year and a half. Almost over two years.

Jess (27:45.964)
yes.

Jess (27:56.77)
Yeah, for you, yes.

Matt (27:58.764)
Yeah, so it probably saved my life, but it also probably almost fucked me up too. Right, it's a really slippery slope for people. You're giving an addict a narcotic that we can't get high on, but we have to self dose it. And you expect us to like...

Jess (28:05.464)
Mm-hmm.

Jess (28:19.07)
a bitch and do it right yeah yeah I am doing it right but but still it's hard as fuck I always want to be like should I take extra strip

Matt (28:23.363)
I mean it.

Matt (28:27.99)
Yeah, dude, it's... Yeah, and then, have you tried to get off of it?

Jess (28:29.474)
NNNN

Jess (28:32.972)
No, not yet. That's where I'm going. I'm down to two strips. I was on three strips, but I'm at a really low dose. So I'm hoping that it's not going to be that hard, but we'll see.

Matt (28:42.112)
Yeah. Are you going to call that doctor? Okay. Yeah. I don't know. Like, I don't know for sure. I can't like point to anybody and say this person is doing this for sure because it's all medically justifiable. Yeah. And it's now part of proper protocol around like insurance reimbursements to put people who meet a criteria onto this maintenance drug. And

Jess (28:43.969)
I am.

Matt (29:11.138)
The criteria is so stupid. It's like if you've overdosed or if you are a chronic relapser. And I've heard just the craziest stories. And my experience around it was very telling, I think, because I was very, like, I didn't care what it was going to take. I was going to get off of it. And it took me like seven, talking to seven different doctors, calling, I don't know how many people.

Jess (29:12.993)
It is.

Jess (29:17.034)
Exactly.

Matt (29:39.65)
And then I told you, right? I finally found an article on Reddit. Like not an article, someone posted on Reddit how they did it. And that's, and I ended up taking that advice and doing it, but I still had to go fish for doctors.

Jess (29:53.644)
doctors that would do that.

Matt (29:55.822)
because all of their medical recommendations is.

Jess (29:58.19)
Day or night. night, yeah. It's insanity. No, that's insanity. won't.

Matt (30:03.18)
And then, have you had friction in the rooms around it?

Jess (30:05.966)
Oh yeah, my first sponsor quit me because of it. She found out I got on Suboxone and was like, oh, I can't be your sponsor anymore. Yeah. Cause you're not sober. I was like, I don't give a shit. I'm not fucking up my life. I'm sober. Yeah.

Matt (30:15.832)
So.

Matt (30:20.206)
I have a... Do know Dr. Shaw?

Jess (30:23.518)
Yeah, the doctor you have on here. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (30:25.39)
So Dr. Shah, hardcore 12 step guy, saved his life legitimately. And it's fun, his whole story of how he ended up in the rooms, he was like, wait, I'm not an alcoholic, I'm suicidal.

Jess (30:42.107)
I did hear that one where y'all talked about that. So, yeah.

Matt (30:46.306)
Yeah, so Dr. Shaw says if you want a better sponsor, you be a better sponsor. Right? If you... And then this, like the... I went to AA, right? And I didn't belong in those rooms based on the criteria for like drinking and alcohol.

Jess (30:50.85)
Hmm.

Jess (31:03.938)
But I go to AA too. Because that's where I feel like the meeting I go to where we go, that's where I feel comfortable and where I first felt welcomed, I guess. But at the same time not, because I never feel always welcomed because I'm very blunt. And yeah.

Matt (31:05.442)
Yeah,

Matt (31:20.972)
Yeah, I need information. Like the relationships are great, whatever. I think most of them are full of shit, but I needed information and the least watered down information that I could get and I found it in A. Same. And so...

Jess (31:27.094)
Same, but...

Jess (31:36.526)
But yeah, I'm not an alcoholic.

Matt (31:38.158)
I'm not an alcoholic either. I mean, I literally, I've probably gotten drunk 20 times in my life.

Jess (31:43.904)
I only drink if I take Xanax because it makes me want to drink. But if I don't have pills, I don't feel like drinking. I instantly go from, like, if I have two drinks, hangover. Like, it's so easy. I'll be puking. wow. It's a hangover. Yeah. And that's why I would take Xanax because I'd be like, hey, if I take Xanax, I won't get a hangover.

Matt (32:01.622)
Yeah, so like pre fall asleep still having hangover symptoms. That's really interesting. Yeah.

Jess (32:09.612)
I get it right away. I start feeling headache-y and gross right away. It's not fun for me. Yeah, it is. When it comes to alcohol, yeah.

Matt (32:14.786)
Dude, that's such a blessing.

Matt (32:19.918)
That's another point, right? I would have never, I shouldn't say that. I probably wouldn't have picked up heroin as fast. I probably still would have

Jess (32:28.502)
Yeah, but see I wouldn't love Xanax as fast either but still yeah like Everybody thought I was an alcoholic because I was always drinking alcohol and pills But I would keep telling them I'm not an alcoholic, you know, because when I don't have pills I don't want to drink but they wouldn't believe me but now that I am been sober they understand what I meant, so It is

Matt (32:48.398)
That's so crazy. Yeah. I wanted to live in like the 1820s because I would have had a bank robber gang.

Jess (32:55.916)
yeah, for sure.

Matt (32:58.488)
but they had like heroin on the shelf. I would have been so fu-

Jess (33:02.444)
Right, you would have been fucked, yeah. But that's how I feel if they just sold Xanax, like they sell alcohol.

Matt (33:09.068)
That's a good point too, alcoholics, I feel really bad for alcoholics. It's not,

Jess (33:11.918)
I really do too. Especially when I work at a bar.

Matt (33:17.184)
Yeah, that's another, yeah, a lot of sober people work in bars.

Jess (33:22.834)
But yeah, that's my story and now I'm almost two years sober. So... Okay. Yeah, but minus the Suboxone. But I still think I'm sober.

Matt (33:34.05)
Does anybody have the right to tell you if you are not? Yeah I I'm not a 12-step person. Yeah, like what I should say is that I don't participate in 12-step meetings, right? But like a lot of my early recovery like wouldn't have been the way it was if it wasn't for 12 steps, right? Whatever that meant But I

Jess (33:36.48)
No, only I do.

Matt (34:03.24)
really like evolved in my recovery when I found peer support.

Jess (34:07.852)
Yeah, I didn't even know about Smart Recovery until I was in rehab. And I was like, Smart Recovery? What's that? I've never even heard of that. Not yet. Dude, I want to do it.

Matt (34:16.3)
Yeah, have you looked into it?

Yeah, that's a really good alternative for people who want information.

Jess (34:24.525)
That's what I want. Yeah, that's why I want to do it because I like learning about why we do the things Okay, cuz when I was in rehab at the right step when I found out like Xanax cuts off the blood the oxygen and blood from your brain That's why you do the fucked up things you do it like really helped me to understand like I didn't quit but

Matt (34:29.986)
That's the one to go down for sure.

Matt (34:46.19)
the connections between benzos and dementia? god. Have you seen all this stuff that's going on?

Jess (34:52.206)
Yes, and that is another reason why I quit because dementia runs in my family and I watched my grandmother go through it through dementia and Alzheimer's No, okay, but I was more likely to

Matt (35:00.79)
Was she on bedzones in her life?

Matt (35:06.158)
Did she work for a government department? Dude, so I have this crazy theory

Jess (35:09.058)
Yes.

What? Well, no, she worked for a lawyer. Is that? No. No. Okay. Sorry to ruin your theory. Okay.

Matt (35:13.87)
Matt (35:21.106)
It's still a theory. It's a lot of people who worked for government offices. They were exposed to asbestos like super crazy. Yeah, and yeah. And then on top of that like who knows what they were seeing. Yeah, and so I'm like the government knew and now they're just hiding shit. We have this whole older generation of people because my wife's grandmother, she's our age. Yeah, like my wife's our age.

Jess (35:29.666)
Yeah, okay. makes sense though. Yeah.

Jess (35:41.656)
Probably.

Matt (35:50.318)
Her grandmother was probably your grandmother's age. And it's like this whole generation of people, they just all of a sudden everybody started getting dementia. It's crazy. So let's rewind it a little bit. When you're dealing with like all of this childhood stuff, like upfront, was there like a definitive moment where the anxiety like turned on?

Jess (35:58.53)
Yeah. That is crazy.

Jess (36:04.045)
sure.

Jess (36:13.42)
Yes, definitely when I was 13. I tried Zoloft, but it just made me want to commit suicide. And then I was prescribed Adderall for ADD. And I probably am ADD, obviously, but yeah. So I got prescribed Adderall, so I would give it to my friends. And that's why my friend gave me the Xanax to calm down from the Adderall.

Matt (36:22.222)
Which is a side effect of it.

Matt (36:39.734)
Okay, so you were abusing your own prescriptions too. Yeah. Yeah. So when it turned on, you're in middle school? Yes. Okay. And what was it like, what, do you remember like a moment where you were like, what the fuck is going on?

Jess (36:44.525)
always.

Jess (36:56.554)
No, I think I just always, maybe I just always felt that anxiety. Like maybe I always felt, like I was always afraid to say things and ask my mom questions because I was scared she was going to yell at me. I was always scared of getting yelled at. I'm still scared of getting yelled at. Even at work, I still feel guilty. Like because I'm used to getting fired for being fucked up on Xanax.

and then they like will tell me good shit about me like no you're doing great we're telling you good things you know and i'm a little over here like worried i'm gonna get fired but yeah

Matt (37:28.972)
Yeah. Has your recovery helped subside the completely irrational anxiety?

Jess (37:36.928)
A little, not really. That's where I'm having a hard time.

Matt (37:41.646)
Okay, I got a question. When was the last time you thought about getting high?

Jess (37:45.851)
right before I started this little mitra gene they put me on.

Matt (37:51.066)
yeah, that'll do it. Yeah.

Jess (37:53.307)
I'm bipolar so I don't know if I should be on this either.

Matt (37:57.322)
Okay, so Dr. Sean and I talk about this pretty often, is that for the average alcoholic or addict that goes into treatment, they get put on, I mean, like everybody gets diagnosed with anxiety and depression, which they should, they should have depression and anxiety, like they earned that. Yeah. You know, and it's like, no, but you're gonna put them on medication. And now you've got like,

Jess (37:59.982)
Okay.

Matt (38:23.682)
This is why I can't, I'm almost positive like the treatment industry became the bridge between the pharmaceutical industry and the medical industry. But everybody is being misdiagnosed. Yes. Because yeah, of course you have anxiety and depression. Yeah. But if you would have not gone on the medication, that all would have subsided.

Jess (38:30.146)
For sure.

Jess (38:41.806)
I know, I feel like if I would have just got off the Suboxone, everything would have been fine, because I was fine before this with my anxiety, before I was on Suboxone.

Matt (38:49.4)
Okay, so is their anxiety connected to dosing?

Jess (38:53.11)
Maybe there's anxiety too when I'm almost about to run out and I think they're not gonna...

Matt (38:56.942)
That's for sure. That's a thing. do you like on a daily? So when I... The reason why I had to get off of it was because... So I go to detox. Dr. Shah detoxed me. And then I go to treatment. And when I leave Dr. Shah's care, I'm on four milligrams. And then I go to treatment and within 24 hours I was on 24 milligrams. And so then I get out.

Jess (39:22.474)
Yeah.

Matt (39:25.954)
and I get a prescription for 90. And I got like all of the stock that I had built up. So now I've got like 140 strips of eight milligrams. And I'm looking at this stuff and I'm like, okay, I know I can shoot this stuff. I know I can like, and I'm like, this is so crazy. Like, how did I? And so in my head, I'm like, this was another deciding moment for me was like, yeah, am I gonna?

Jess (39:33.154)
Yep.

Jess (39:47.488)
And up here, yeah.

Jess (39:55.82)
That's crazy, I didn't know that.

Matt (39:57.004)
Secretly get high and I mean dude I was yeah, I've been slamming heroin for 17 years They all they all know it's like okay. I'm I know also if you're like

Jess (40:01.528)
sure all the people who have done that know that.

Jess (40:08.206)
Because I used to buy Suboxone to get high off of it before I even was prescribed it. Right.

Matt (40:13.048)
Did you ever get high on it after you got it prescribed?

Jess (40:15.623)
No, mean like at the, yes actually at the beginning it did fuck me up and they wanted to kick me out of the sober living house because I was falling asleep.

Matt (40:22.836)
dude, I know somebody that's going-

Jess (40:24.766)
So that's why I'm on a very low dose because I was like, I can't take this. This is too high. So they gave me a lower dose. And then I ended up leaving that sober living house because of them being like that. And that's when I moved into the women and children's sober living house so my child could live there with me.

Matt (40:30.776)
Yeah.

Matt (40:41.098)
Is it still there? Yes. What is it called?

Jess (40:43.566)
Well, I don't know what the house is called. don't remember, but it's Oxford House. Yeah, but they're all called, they all have their own names. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (40:48.748)
Okay, yeah.

Matt (40:53.026)
Yeah, so Oxford is a specific type of, it's a communal.

Jess (40:57.71)
the house. Different roles in it. Like somebody's the secretary, somebody's the president. Right. It's all run the house. You're self governed.

Matt (41:04.174)
It's self-go- It's called a democratic sober living. Correct. So anyway, get, I'm in this situation, I'm like, what am gonna do? And actually this is like right when I quit going to AA too. Cause it was like, I talked about this in a meeting and like I talked about what was going on in a meeting and I could just see

Jess (41:09.389)
Yes.

Jess (41:27.714)
Did the same thing. Yeah, it was not it. But guess what? It made another guy open up to me who was taking Suboxone and he was able to talk to me about it because I opened up. Yeah. So.

Matt (41:38.594)
Well, the clubhouse I was going to is like very strictly alcoholic.

Jess (41:41.824)
Yeah, and it was mine.

Matt (41:43.758)
It was like I could see like the lights turn on and I was like So then I go to the next meeting and it turns into this whole thing, but anyway, I'm like dude I got to get off this shit. Yeah, like there's Yeah, you do you I mean

Jess (41:58.14)
That's how I feel right now.

I'm like, gotta get off this.

Matt (42:03.308)
Yeah, medical advice, like medication advice, like it's such a weird thing because you have all these sponsors like telling everybody you shouldn't be on antidepressants or you shouldn't.

Jess (42:13.742)
Oh, no, I have to be. I'll be crying. Yeah. I take some Bolta. If I don't take my some Bolta, I cry. I'll just have crying spills and be crying nonstop. It's ridiculous. I'll just be sad and fearful of everything.

Matt (42:27.534)
So, I don't, I've never, I have antisocial personality disorder. And so my, spectrum of like emotions for me is like, like if yours is like this, mine is like that.

Jess (42:41.346)
That's how I feel. I feel like a robot though sometimes. I used to take Xanax just so I would have feelings. Like, so I would feel like I had feelings.

Matt (42:48.84)
yeah, people talk about like, you get your feelings back. I was like.

Jess (42:51.838)
No, I feel more dead inside.

Matt (42:53.934)
Me too, it was when I was on Yeah, like heroin, but everybody talks about like all of the greatest songs were written on heroin they were right so it was like

Jess (42:56.546)
That's what's hard.

Jess (43:06.068)
And I always fall in love with heroin addicts, it's weird. My Sean, he was a heroin addict, or he used to be. He didn't do it with me, but he was before.

Matt (43:14.478)
That is such a weird battle like heroin addiction is such a weird battle I just talked about this recently on a podcast where I was like I Knew like like in the deepest core of me that everything was not gonna be okay Yeah, as long as I had this it was like as long as I felt like it was gonna be

Jess (43:35.592)
Okay, then it was gonna be okay. Yeah, that's how I am Now that I don't have this annex telling me it's gonna be okay. I'm thinking everything's gonna implode I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop and then I moved him back with Michael my husband, okay, and I was with him for a year because yes, okay divorce Well, we haven't gotten a divorce yet. We're still married Okay, so we were separated and I'm at the sober living home because he told me I couldn't come back home Yeah, because and that was you know, actually he saved my life because had I been

Matt (43:51.747)
de hoarse.

Jess (44:04.748)
gone back home, I would have gone right back to the same shit because of everything that went down in that house. And I would have been reminded of all that shit. And I used his gaming addiction to World of Warcraft to do Xanax. I'd be like, well, you're going to ignore me? Well, fuck you. I'm going to go do what I want then. And so I would go take Xanax and do whatever, you know, because I knew he was there watching my son. you know, I didn't, I would come back and...

go get him without my son, but I would come back. It's not like I ever neglected him, so that was hard for me. And I got my associate degree in science. I wanted to be a nurse, so when my son was born, I went back to school and I got my associate degree all.

Matt (44:47.352)
Fucked up. All fucked up. Yeah. How much do you remember?

Jess (44:49.198)
Yeah. I wasn't your normal addict. That's the thing. I took AMP1, AMP2 and did great, got an A and a B and took my nursing exam for the entrance exam, but I don't remember any of that now that I want to go back and do it. That's the thing. It's so weird if you take a Xanax and you take it every day, you remember the day before. But if I stopped taking the Xanax, I don't remember it. It's so weird how if you take it though, you'll remember what you were doing. It's so weird.

Yeah. like it puts your brain back in that mental state and so you remember. don't even know.

Matt (45:20.846)
There's like a continuity. Yeah, like a continuity. Yeah, I want to I think that is a very typical alcoholic addict thing I just had somebody on the other day. He was 21 years old Fucking his life like literally fucking his life up and got a job like flipping burgers. Mm-hmm and 18 months later. He was running the restaurant Yeah, like we are very high achievers. Actually, I just came up with this we are yeah, very high achievers, but I

Jess (45:47.822)
That's part of the problem for me though. I feel like I'm never good enough.

Matt (45:50.638)
Yeah, I think it's part of everybody's... I think that I came up with... I had this thought two days ago, was like, the reason... Well, anyway, if addicts and alcoholics, like, en masse entered recovery, we would end this problem with, like, adolescent boys not having examples to follow.

Jess (46:10.286)
That's a big deal for me. That's why I moved out and why I have my own place Because my husband was still just being a dick and yelling at me and still bringing up the past Yeah, and I was like I can't live like this. I'm gonna relapse if you keep throwing the past in my face Yeah, then my son was having to yell at him like don't yell at mommy and I'm like no my son didn't have to stick up for me nine years old Yeah, shout out to me since you wanted me to called me to come get you sick from school

Matt (46:25.516)
Yeah, it's the scene of the crime.

Jess (46:41.257)
He wants to be a YouTuber, so I think he was trying to get out of school to come with me, so they called me on the way here to come get him. I'm like, he's not sick. I know, I'm like, oh my god.

Matt (46:49.24)
That's terrible.

Jess (46:55.182)
He is obsessed with becoming a YouTuber and I'm like your brain is too smart for that. You're becoming an engineer. Yeah

Matt (47:03.778)
Yeah, this YouTube thing's really crazy. it is. It's like destroying.

Jess (47:10.975)
I agree. think it's just drawing a lot of shit too.

Matt (47:13.954)
Meanwhile, I'm gonna post this on YouTube.

Jess (47:18.786)
This is informational and if it helps save somebody, then it's totally worth it.

Matt (47:22.412)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, gaming addiction. So I just had a mother on. She had to send her son to a boarding school for device addiction. Wow. And he's been there for eight months or something like that. And he's got like four or five more months to go. But this kid wrote me a letter for her to read to me in the beginning of the episode. He's 13. Yeah. And he was like quoting college level, like classical literature to her, like to me.

Jess (47:51.054)
He'll write down classical music. He'll write down the lyrics to it. He's crazy.

Matt (47:57.004)
Yeah, how old is he? Okay, so have you heard of this Generation Alpha thing that's going on? Your son's a Gen... like, we're Millennials. We're fucked up. But he's a Generation Alpha. These kids have access to so much information.

Jess (48:13.386)
my god, my son is so smart, dude. The shit he tells me. I'm like, what? YouTube?

Matt (48:18.158)
They're making- How do you know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. YouTube, like, they're making these commitments. There's like, first of all, there's sober high schools now. You know this? No. Yeah, there's high schools where like part of the curriculum is- sober? Being sober. Wow. Yeah. But also, they're making these like, these commitments, and I know why, I think I know why, is because we are raising them and we're fucked up. Yeah. And so they're making-

Jess (48:42.54)
Yeah, we're fucked up. I try to really instill in my son too. Like I took him to AA with me. I don't hide things from him. I want that seed to be planted just in case he is an addict. And he will tell me to like crazy. The thing that's hard too, though, is he would tell me, I wish you were still an addict. You were more cuddly then. Or like, and I'm like, yeah, because I'll let you do whatever the fuck you wanted. You know, so.

That's been hard. I spoiled him and now I'm having to deal with my consequence, like with what I did. With him being a spoiled entitled little shit. But he's really good though at acknowledging people's feelings, but he's also a bigger kid so people are mean to him sometimes. So he has to deal with that and I feel bad like that's my fault. there's a lot, yeah.

Matt (49:34.894)
Yeah, there's a lot going on. Yeah, kids, yeah, there's a lot going on.

Jess (49:40.322)
But I didn't want him to see the way my husband treated me and think it's okay to treat women that way. so that's why I moved out. And I always tell him, know, like, feel your feelings. I let him cry just because he's a boy doesn't mean boys can't cry. Like if my mom tries to tell him that I shut her down. I'm like, no, let him cry. Let him feel his feelings. And he can self-soothe. Like he puts on ASMR to go to sleep. He can put himself to sleep, but he knows how to calm himself down, you know?

Matt (49:46.19)
That makes sense.

Jess (50:06.67)
And I think that's really important because I didn't know how to do that as a child. I was just forced to go to bed and stay up there laying awake thinking of all this shit that would drive me crazy. Yeah. So.

Matt (50:19.522)
There's no fucking handbook. But I will say this. Like we've moved into this weird situation, I don't know what, I don't know, where like women are now trying to, and no offense to you guys. I know you're both boy moms, like from a man's perspective, guilt and shame are really good motivators for young boys. So like.

Jess (50:34.222)
Go ahead.

Matt (50:45.1)
get their shit straight. And I feel like a lot of...

Jess (50:50.296)
We don't want them to feel guilt or shame anymore.

Matt (50:52.564)
Not just that, but it's like, yeah, it is okay to cry. Trust me, I was sexually abused as a kid. There's a lot of things that I talk about that the average guy would never talk about. But at the same time, it's like, crying's one thing, but I don't know. Who knows? Who knows how to do this?

Jess (51:03.532)
No, I love that.

Jess (51:13.294)
But yeah, no I am NOT gonna lie it might not have been always the best and that's what me and my husband still fight about is the way we parent and So that's the hard part because I think he's too strict and he thinks I'm too lenient and so yeah

Matt (51:30.7)
Yeah, but I think that that is the, like, the ideal would be, so the government has kept and conducted like crazy studies, like studies that have gone on for 60 plus years around outcomes for children. And there was a study that said that outcomes for children that live in a home with both parents who are abusive are better than a single parent home.

Jess (51:55.436)
No, I know I read that. That's why I've stayed with my husband for so long, because I took psych classes and it said, like, people who are married, their kids will end up better than being apart. And so I stayed, but I'm sorry, I don't believe, like, some part of that. Like, my son was the one wanting me to move. He was asking me, like, I want to leave. I want to live with just you. So, yeah.

Matt (52:22.902)
So crazy. Outcomes are crazy anyway. We look at us and we are definitely the outcome of our parents. for sure. Right? It's like, okay, well how can they...

Jess (52:26.923)
Yeah.

Jess (52:33.998)
I don't know. I know I try I'm trying every day to break that generational trauma Every day trying to be better than my parents were you know, but luckily my dad He's been sober since my son's been born because I told him, know, you were a mean alcoholic You'll never see my child if you drink

Matt (52:50.094)
That got him. That's crazy. Grandparents are fucking really weird.

Jess (52:56.696)
They are. It's like, well, my sister and brother, they're like, why can't he have done that for us? But I don't feel that way. I get it, guess, because I'm an addict.

Matt (53:05.486)
So my parents have 34 grandchildren, because they have a million kids. Yeah. Right? And I'm like, so I left at 16 and I was completely disconnected at 21 and didn't come back until I was 32. And I didn't talk to any of them.

Jess (53:20.59)
kind of how, because I was living with my dad at 17, so he was off getting drunk. I was doing whatever I wanted at 17, and his boyfriend, who's his husband now, lived with him, and he would be like, we have to go find your dad. He could be drunk or going to jail. He's not answering his phone. And I'd be like, Andre, no, I've been dealing with this my whole life. I'm not going to go find him. Like, he should be looking for me. should be the other way around. I'm not going to go look for him. Yeah.

Matt (53:44.46)
But the parents that I had, like watching my now parents who are grandparents, I'm like, what the fuck? Like, it's just so different. And I think a lot of it is like my parents were like extreme disciplinarians and they probably got so sick of that.

Jess (53:51.982)
They're so different.

Jess (54:01.439)
Same. I got the belt growing up. yeah. So yeah, my mom spanked us with hot wheel tracks The flimsy one

Matt (54:07.99)
yeah, we got like wire hangers, electrical cords. But it was also a very different time. And I'm from California where like that was legal and then at one point it became like you go to prison. But I recently found out it's legal to spank your kids in Texas, so.

Jess (54:13.762)
Yeah.

Jess (54:22.254)
Yeah,

Really?

Matt (54:28.59)
You had a CPS court judge on. okay. was like, no, it's legal to spank your kids.

Jess (54:32.974)
Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Matt (54:35.234)
And then I was like, how do know the line between abuse and discipline? And she was like, you know it when you see it. I was like, okay, but what if you're the one doing it?

Jess (54:39.672)
You do.

Right. Right. No, and plus, every children's different. Spanking didn't work with me. It just made him want to hit me. Yeah. Just teach him hitting is okay.

Matt (54:54.03)
And made your son want to hit you?

Jess (54:56.564)
He would just hit me back if I spanked his butt. So I'm like, that's not working. It's taking away YouTube and taking away his video games that works.

Matt (55:02.338)
Yeah, there has to be a fear.

Matt (55:07.95)
So that mother That was on about her son. You know what her suggestion was? No devices at all. us. Yep. It was like you are like they are watching you and they are learning from you. I

Jess (55:24.064)
I do that. I watch too much TV.

Matt (55:26.914)
She said TV was okay, it's like the divide.

Jess (55:28.75)
Yeah, I'm not big on my phone. I don't like that. I'm like an 80 year old when it comes to technology

Matt (55:35.438)
The doom scrolling but I upload a lot

Jess (55:38.446)
Yeah, I do do that I upload shit, but I don't really go back and look at it Yeah, well, I mean on Facebook. I don't upload like y'all upload

Matt (55:47.502)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been doing it for four months and I just crossed 3.5 million views.

Jess (55:52.408)
Bad ass dude. I'm so proud of you.

Matt (55:55.539)
I didn't, so I didn't have social media because I knew that my family could find me.

Jess (56:01.23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't want anybody to know how I was doing, so same. I remember living at Avalon Square and my husband still talks about this and makes fun of us. He would come over and we would be watching movies on my phone because I'm spending all my money on pills. So we didn't have cable, so we would just watch the same DVDs over and over again, you know? And that's all we did.

Matt (56:24.084)
Kids don't even know what DVDs are.

Jess (56:25.85)
I know. My son actually has a TV with a VHS player at the bottom and he's obsessed with like old things like he loves watching restorations of vehicles. So like I love that he watches that stuff on YouTube at least so at least it's like he's learning something.

Matt (56:42.06)
Yeah, it's such a slippery slope.

Jess (56:46.306)
But he does watch way too much TV. And he watches way too much YouTube. And he plays Fortnite way too much, probably. And he plays all those games way too much, probably. Not big on Fortnite, though, so I got lucky there.

Matt (56:54.051)
Fortnite

Matt (56:57.602)
You know this Minecraft thing? More predators have been caught on Minecraft than any other game.

Jess (57:01.806)
Well, I'm really glad my son hasn't been playing Minecraft as much anymore then. Oh yeah, I think that's Roblox. I'm like, they can't do that on Minecraft. But you'll get there with your kids.

Matt (57:15.834)
yeah, my daughter, she's four and it's like, I'm still contemplating. Yeah, I'm probably going to send her. I found this boarding school in England. It's like an all girls boarding school. It's like eight hours away from like the closest city. Like, yeah, that sounds viable to me.

Jess (57:36.406)
I see you rebel later on in life.

Matt (57:39.182)
Oh yeah. But as long as it's after 18, like, hey, I got her there.

Jess (57:43.47)
You got her there. Yeah, I feel that I feel that that's why I make my son play sports You like get out there and do other stuff. That's it Yeah, he's playing basketball right now. So

Matt (57:49.302)
And if she's anything.

Really good.

Matt (57:55.734)
Yeah, how tall is he?

Jess (57:57.346)
He is up to here. I'm 5'2 and a half and he's like 5 foot. He's 9.

Matt (58:00.92)
Dude, my buddy's got a two year old that's like three and a half feet tall.

Jess (58:06.062)
That was my son. That was my son. That was, swear to God. I swear, he was so freaking tall and big. Everybody would be like, that came out of you? And I'm like, you know? He was a big. It is crazy. My husband's really tall, so hopefully he'll shoot up.

Matt (58:19.662)
Genetics are crazy.

Matt (58:26.636)
Well, I'm 5'5 and my wife's shorter than me, so we're have small kids. Hopefully. I have a redheaded daughter though. Like a white with blue eyes, red-

Jess (58:30.211)
Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah, my son got my white hair and blue eyes. it got darker the older I got.

Matt (58:38.958)
white harem.

Matt (58:44.097)
you like the

Jess (58:44.95)
I was born with white hair and blue eyes, but as I aged, it got more golden.

Matt (58:51.662)
Genetics are funny. You would think, so my grandma's from Ho Chi Minh City. She's purely Vietnamese. Okay, so got my me and a bunch of my siblings got our 23andMe done. And you would think mathematically, okay, my grandma's full and my mom's 50%. That means that we're 25%. And then I have a brother that's 34 % Vietnamese and then I'm 22 % Vietnamese.

Jess (58:59.954)
I remember hearing that.

Jess (59:20.716)
Wow. I know it's crazy, my husband, did the same thing and it's crazy because his last name is Lindtelman, so he figured I'm from Germany. Well no, he's English because they originated there but moved to Germany. And I was like, no wonder you look so European.

Matt (59:41.12)
My... one of my distant ancestors was the first person we executed in the United States.

Jess (59:47.534)
Crazy. I have another one. know the Sean I was with? Yeah. His grandma is Bonnie Parker, Bonnie and Clyde. Really? His last name is Parker. Yes. Like, Kowana Parker. It's crazy. I saw the tree and everything.

Matt (59:57.23)
That's pretty awesome.

Matt (01:00:02.734)
That's amazing. So did she really have a bum leg?

Jess (01:00:05.762)
Yes. Okay. Yes.

Matt (01:00:07.822)
You know DB Cooper? The bank robber that like they gave him a plane and then he just did... I dated his niece.

Jess (01:00:10.529)
No.

Jess (01:00:14.135)
Yeah, yeah.

That's cool. Yeah Yeah, that was I've waited on a couple famous people the beard. He was cool the beard. Yeah, he was like Rockets guy Yeah, like he was on our basketball team. You're tired. Yeah, what's his name? I just can't think of it right now. No Something Howard. No something like that. Yeah, I'll think of it in a minute

Matt (01:00:32.195)
them out.

Jason, not Jason.

Matt (01:00:42.926)
of bloods whenever he made it out the shot.

Jess (01:00:44.942)
Yeah, I think so. Is that what he, I don't know. Yeah. I know it's gonna drive me crazy too.

Matt (01:00:49.312)
Now I'm to... I'm going to Celtics game in three days.

Jess (01:00:53.832)
Lucky. I love basketball.

Matt (01:00:57.858)
So do I, it's only professional sporting.

Jess (01:00:59.586)
Same, same. That's why my son's playing basketball and I'm the assistant coach. Yeah? Yeah.

Matt (01:01:07.008)
Okay, so now that you're in recovery, you're down this road, how are you dealing with parenting?

Jess (01:01:16.782)
Actually, I feel like it's harder. I feel like it was easier when I was on Xanax, maybe because I wasn't worrying so much about what happened. But now I worry about all the outcomes, like am I doing this right? Is this right? Is this too much? Is it not enough? I gotta be more strict. I gotta lay down a little more. I'm too lenient. It literally hurts my heart when he cries. It literally hurts me.

Matt (01:01:38.744)
Well, boundary.

Jess (01:01:45.014)
Like makes me feel physically ill. Wow. I know. I'm so screwed.

Matt (01:01:48.14)
This is not turning out well.

Matt (01:01:53.354)
Okay, I'm just gonna throw this out there. But I think that's just as bad as like the mistreating is like the emotional. Now he's like gonna be able to be like, I know how to manipulate this situation.

Jess (01:02:06.36)
He he knows how to manipulate every situation I just had to deal with that last night because he knew I was gonna sit and watch the Royal Rumble with my husband and Because he's like you got to watch it your girl live wins He well he didn't tell me but I knew it was gonna win because he wanted me to watch it and So he's like come on We're gonna watch it and then as soon as we put it on mace goes upstairs and there's this huge fit that he wants me and he wants me to come upstairs and lay down and cuddle with him and I'm like no Stop manipulating me. Yeah, and he my my

And Michael's like, gotta be strong with him. Don't give in. And I didn't. went back downstairs and I let him cry and do his shit and did not give in. And I was like, if you really want to be with me, you can come down here and watch this with us. And he eventually did. So I did good last night. I'm making progress.

Matt (01:02:54.094)
Hey, there was. So do you know anything about like Jewish culture?

Jess (01:03:00.288)
Yes, a little and I'm obsessed with that new new show. Nobody wants this he's a rabbi and he's with Kristen Bell and she it's funny cuz her dad's gay so I relate with it a lot It's on Netflix No, no, no, sorry. Her dad is gay and she's dating this guy who's a rabbi. Okay, but like her family's crazy It would be like me dating a rabbi. yeah, so it's pretty cool

Matt (01:03:06.254)
don't even know what that is.

Matt (01:03:14.188)
He's a gay rabbi.

Matt (01:03:24.972)
Rabbis are interesting people. Yeah. Really? Is he like, Hasidic with the curls? Okay. well, back in the day, I don't know if this is still a thing, but back in the day, used to, like, the mother would take full control until the boys were eight, and then it was a hundred percent the dad would take disciplinary, like, everything. Full control underneath.

Jess (01:03:27.64)
He's a hot rabbi. Really? Yeah. No.

Jess (01:03:46.752)
I think that's smart because I feel like, actually I feel like it was kind of a blessing I was on Ativan and an addict when I was because now I'm having a hard time dealing with my son. I feel like I gave him like really good emotional like because I was in nursing I was like studying to be a nurse so I was taking psychology so I was teaching him everything like the body parts I was teaching him like everything I was learning in nursing and so

I was letting him learn with me. And he loved it, you know? I remember one day I was like, hey, I'm really proud of you for Tae Kwon Do. And he's like, what about school? And I was like, well, of course I'm proud of you for school. And he's like, well, I don't want to learn how to hit people. I just want to go to college like you. And I was like, wow, he really is watching what I do.

Matt (01:04:38.391)
Yeah, for sure.

Jess (01:04:39.412)
And I'm like, so now really want to finish becoming a nurse so I can show him you really can become whatever you want.

Matt (01:04:44.652)
Yeah. Do you, are you a nurse?

Jess (01:04:47.446)
No, I just have my associate degree in science and did all my classes to get my bachelor's degree in science. So like if I got into a nursing program that was one year and accelerated, I could have my BSN in a year. But money and I'm a single mom and yeah.

Matt (01:05:06.562)
Well, that is a really good door to kick open into the treatment world.

Jess (01:05:10.188)
Yeah, that's I've been thinking about actually getting my LSDDC license or, you know, being licensed counselor. I've been thinking about that.

Matt (01:05:19.982)
That's an interesting path to go down, because I have a bunch of friends that are LCDCs, and I have one specifically that's a really good friend, shout out Robert. He's an LCDCI. I watch, unfortunately, when you go into the clinical world, there's handcuffs that are put on you around what you are allowed to do and what you are not. And so it's like, in order to be effective.

Jess (01:05:21.848)
Yeah.

Jess (01:05:45.646)
That's why this is really hard for me to do it because I don't want to just prescribe people pills. I feel like if I became a nurse, there would be a lot of things that a doctor did that would piss me off.

Matt (01:06:02.606)
You know how much formal education the average PCP gets around addiction medicine?

Jess (01:06:09.326)
Probably not much. Wow. Total. Six hours total? No wonder we're fucked. No wonder they don't know shit about us. They probably know more than they do right now. yeah.

Matt (01:06:11.288)
Six hours.

Matt (01:06:18.862)
Yeah, so like this is why the-

Anybody that's gone to treatment probably understands a little bit more than your average primary care provider.

Jess (01:06:29.866)
For sure. I know I remember telling a primary care provider I couldn't I took acid and I couldn't move my neck or back I got a slipped disc and I told her and she's like you've licked a battery Because she wasn't from this country and I was like, are you fucking serious? I was like no I took LSD like Yeah, and I was like and she goes no, but she was like LSD. don't have this What does this and I was like what?

Matt (01:06:50.126)
Did she understand you then?

Jess (01:06:59.342)
How do you not know what LSD is and you're a doctor? Shocking to me. But yeah, that is an issue. But that's why I want to be nurse too, so I can be there for other people and know that they're not alone and handle the people who get treated like shit because they're our addicts. Yes, I want to be an emergency room nurse.

Matt (01:07:02.318)
Yeah, six hours. Six hours. It is, it becomes.

Matt (01:07:19.83)
Yeah, like in an emergency.

Okay, so my cousin's wife was a training nurse in an emergency room and she lost her fucking soul.

Jess (01:07:30.572)
Yeah, I'm worried about that. Yeah, she's getting... See, I kind of have no soul already. I mean, that's why I want to do that though, because I feel like I have no emotions and I'd be able to handle it really well.

Matt (01:07:32.6)
Yeah. Get out of

Hey!

Matt (01:07:42.991)
Yeah, yeah, the benefits of addiction.

Jess (01:07:45.612)
Yeah, yeah, for real, not a lot bothers me. Like when it comes to big stuff, it's the little things that get to me when it comes to like my son and my family. But if it's not that, then I'm good. No.

Matt (01:07:49.069)
Yeah.

Matt (01:07:58.254)
Do you know what SAMHSA is? It's the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Department of the federal government. Okay, so they've been around for like 34 years. Two years ago was the first time in their history that the director was in recovery. Wow. First time. Yeah. And it's Substance Abuse and Mental Health Department. What?

Jess (01:08:03.97)
Wow, no.

Jess (01:08:19.361)
That's crazy to me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah.

Matt (01:08:23.457)
Some shit just doesn't make sense.

Jess (01:08:25.194)
It doesn't. And that's what I have a hard time with when things don't make sense. And I'm like, but why? I do have a hard time a lot.

Matt (01:08:29.837)
You got a hard time a lot.

Dude, yeah, I tell people all the time that addiction follows no logical, linear path, but neither does recovery.

Jess (01:08:41.208)
So true. Yeah, you're right. It's like- I thought it, you know, it's gonna be all rainbows and sunshine, fuck now.

Matt (01:08:49.42)
Well, there's that part, but also like how many things do you do where if people knew that you did it, they'd be like, why do you do that?

Jess (01:08:55.95)
Yeah, I mean people do say that to me at work. They're like, why are you doing this like this? You're making it so much harder. I'm like, don't you know me? I have to do everything the most stubborn hard way until You know, it makes sense to me. Yeah, my brain doesn't work like my sons and my brothers They're like really with it, but I have to really try for where I got in life

Matt (01:09:16.066)
It doesn't sound like it with the whole nursing because I don't think I could do it.

Jess (01:09:21.344)
Well, but see, the Ativan slowed down my... I wasn't taking Xanax at that time. I was only taking my Ativan. So, but I would run out of my Ativan later and I ended up graduating with a Percocet addiction. I was working at Champion's Chiropractic Assistant. Had this lady come in, she's like, you have the perfect personality, you know, because I was an addict and...

all this shit, she's like, you have the perfect personality to work at the Harris Center. I'm thinking, ooh, psych tech, I'm getting into the nursing field kind of, this is gonna be awesome, you know? No, not what I was thinking. I went to work at a jail. And it was a numble, the Harris Center, a numble, it's the jail one. Where people come from TDC.

Matt (01:10:00.386)
This is a...

Yeah, and it's also like a lockdown facility. And it's...

Jess (01:10:07.662)
and I have to distribute meds and stuff. Yeah.

Matt (01:10:12.108)
And there's like clinically insane, I mean, criminally insane people there. Yes. Okay, so tell me about it.

Jess (01:10:18.318)
So then I start working there and this is when I had already gotten to Oxy and Percocet because I was trying to stay off the Xanax. So was just trading one addiction for the other. But this way I wouldn't get fired from my job because I could still function on those. I wouldn't get caught like I would on Xanax. So I would go every day and take a Percocet so that I would feel like, what am I trying to say, like more extroverted enough to yell at inmates and...

do the things I was supposed to do, but I was really bad at it, because I was always on the inmate side. And they're like, Jessica, you are not an inmate. You are the, you know, like, correctional officer, basically. And I'm like, yeah, but y'all are treating them like shit. But I knew what it was like, because I had been on both ends. So, yeah. Yeah, I've been to jail five times, but for traffic tickets, for warrants, for speeding.

Matt (01:11:09.038)
Wait, have you been arrested?

Matt (01:11:16.849)
Wow, they do that here. Do you know if they do that for the toll roads?

Jess (01:11:21.356)
No, you won't, trust me. Alright. I would know.

Matt (01:11:25.55)
Okay, because I keep getting these letters from my wife. They're like, you're gonna, if we catch you, we're gonna tow your car. And then like, I looked into the zones, like downstream somewhere, like there is an arrest in there. They probably could. On the books, but I don't know if they actually do.

Jess (01:11:40.714)
over and looked it up and saw. That's the only way I always got caught because I was on Xanax and then I would get pulled over. I don't know how, thank the Lord, that I don't have a DWI or anything. I drove all the time and didn't even know how I got home.

Matt (01:11:52.814)
So my brother-

Matt (01:11:57.102)
That is so insane. brother, when he got kicked out at 16 and then came and lived with me, and he then became a heroin addict. But he was selling like ecstasy and Xanax at 16. Wow. he had a bowling alley job. when he finally, like, the day he went to treatment, he crashed his car three times on the way to work and ended up at work and had no clue how he got there or where his car was.

Jess (01:12:03.512)
Sounds like me, yeah.

Jess (01:12:22.862)
Yeah, that was my dad. Like we're always looking for his car. Where do you live his car? I couldn't remember where he parked it. You know that song came in through the window. Yeah, that was my song for my dad.

Matt (01:12:39.086)
Cars on fire in the front yard.

Jess (01:12:40.6)
Yep. Yeah. Climbed in through the window. Yeah. And now you're gone. Yeah. Yep. and then my dad came out when he got out of prison. So that's why, like, I guess he decided it would be okay. He's told my mom he had a feeling he was gay ever since he was nine years old. No, I don't think so. Not that. No, he was. I think so. Yeah.

Matt (01:12:57.742)
Was he molested as a kid?

Matt (01:13:03.82)
Yeah, there I

Jess (01:13:05.612)
I know my stepdad was who became a pedophile, so... Yeah.

Matt (01:13:09.902)
I mean, yeah, that doesn't happen without that. I've never heard of it where like, actually, you know what though? Do you know what the semen warriors of Papua New Guinea is? Never heard of this? There's a warrior culture in Papua New Guinea where they, at six years old, this is so gross, this is so crazy. At six years old, they like give their sons up to like go train as a warrior and they give them to,

Jess (01:13:20.366)
What? No.

Matt (01:13:38.22)
what becomes their anal father. And they have this belief that in order for a warrior to grow big and strong, they've got to ingest sperm, orally and anally. And they do these crazy rituals where the whole village will just rape this. And there's teams of these kids. And then, it's so funny, it's like after they reach 13, they get made fun of if they continue that behavior though.

Jess (01:13:55.081)
my god

Jess (01:14:05.358)
Wow. Yeah, it's like crazy. It's crazy. Like you're introducing him to this, but then if you keep acting like this. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy.

Matt (01:14:11.854)
Until you

Jess (01:14:14.732)
Right? Like... no thank you. The weirdest. That's fucking weird. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt (01:14:19.576)
So, I mean there are things like that going on, but yeah, I don't know of, I don't personally know of, and I've looked this up like a bunch a little bit, probably more than most people do, yeah, I've never heard of a single situation where sexual deviance was spawned out of like...

Jess (01:14:36.642)
Yeah, nothing.

Matt (01:14:39.246)
And I'm not saying that being gay is sexually deviant, I'm just saying that-

Jess (01:14:43.473)
I know. I don't think that.

Matt (01:14:46.082)
Yeah, it's just a, I don't know, it's like, we live in a time where moral relevancy is becoming like the primary worldview. Like your story, right? There's like a lot of like, relativeness within the moral framework. And it leads to like, cause you can justify anything at that point. It's like, yeah, well, you know, it's like,

Jess (01:15:02.06)
Very much so.

Jess (01:15:08.398)
I pretty much can. I tried to. I tried to use that for everything. Like, well, I did this because of this. Or if somebody died, I used that as an excuse. Sucks that I was so messed up at all the funerals I was at for my grandparents.

Matt (01:15:11.212)
No, you literally can.

Matt (01:15:27.032)
Well, plus there's like harm principle. Where it's like, if consent is present and harm is not, that something is okay.

Jess (01:15:35.138)
Yeah, and it was like it blocked all the fear out of me the Xanax did so I wasn't fearful of anything. Sky was the limit for me, you know? I would just keep fucking guys because I was getting Xanax for them for free.

Matt (01:15:46.654)
Did you ever get into stealing?

Jess (01:15:48.847)
Yeah, I did an early in my Xanax addiction. would wake up, but I only stole from stores. I never stole from people.

Matt (01:15:56.214)
No, that's part of like the moral. so there is women for some reason.

Jess (01:16:01.688)
wake up with a whole new wardrobe? All kinds of shit. I'm like, how did I get this?

Matt (01:16:06.964)
Women have a propensity like when they first get on Xanax like it their minds All like obsessively and compulsively where it's like and then they all wake up in the morning They're like, holy shit. Where did all this come

Jess (01:16:12.376)
It makes them want to steal. They steal. Yes.

Jess (01:16:23.15)
That's why when I found out that it cuts off the blood support and oxygen to your brain. Yeah, I was like, that's why I want to steal things

Matt (01:16:31.5)
Yeah, men get violent and women steal.

Jess (01:16:33.882)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the hard part too. See I don't get violent I would be like feeling good and happy so that's why it was hard for me to quit Because I wasn't violent on it. Yeah I know I had to have it at a certain point I had to wait I had to feel like I had to take it to be a good parent and do everything I needed to do for the day for him

Matt (01:16:43.628)
You also need it to a certain point.

Matt (01:16:53.282)
Okay, so how are you dealing with that? Like, feeling side of it?

Jess (01:16:56.148)
Ugh. So hard.

Matt (01:16:59.95)
Because it's like boundaries are a principle.

Jess (01:17:02.574)
horrible at boundaries, so I'm working on that. I'm working on codependency. That's another reason why I moved out on my own, because I jumped from guy to guy to guy. I'm like, I just need to be on my own for a while and focus on my son and that's it. And myself. So that's where I'm at now. But I am having a really hard time with it, and that's why they put me on the limo trajine, because I was having a really hard time with still feeling the anxiety, like, because they have stuff for opioid addiction, they have stuff for alcoholics, but there's nothing for Xanax addicts.

barely any research on it. Like, don't know shit about

Matt (01:17:34.584)
So are, because of the medication, are you having better control over impulse?

Jess (01:17:43.242)
Yeah, I'll tell you the crazy part. The day I took the limo-trigene, it felt like I took a Xanax without all the crazy side, without getting... Yes, like I felt like I could breathe again. But now the problem I'm having is I guess my body got used to it and I don't feel that feeling anymore and it's just making me too tired.

Matt (01:17:51.224)
Like you're level-headed.

Matt (01:18:01.614)
Maybe have you thought that it's in conjunction with the box?

Jess (01:18:05.166)
Suboxone I have. And I think if I got off the Suboxone and I was just on the Lymotrigine, it would be perfect. I found what I should be on. I started crying because I felt happy again.

Matt (01:18:10.659)
and

Matt (01:18:15.234)
Have you heard of like medication resets? Where like you stop taking your medication, obviously like with, under medical supervision. But then it just restarts your...

Jess (01:18:17.165)
No.

Jess (01:18:27.66)
Dependency and tolerance, no. But that's probably what I need to do.

Matt (01:18:30.84)
Yeah, because there are people who would say like you just need to the dose and yeah, it's

Jess (01:18:34.846)
I don't like that. I hate that. Terrible idea. always tell them no because I'm very sensitive to medication. Yeah. And so if they up it, uh-uh. I already did that with my Cymbalta. It was a bad idea. Yeah. I'm like, nope, I'll stay on 40 milligrams. I'm not going to 60.

Matt (01:18:50.276)
SSRIs are crazy. Do you know that every mash shoot

Jess (01:18:53.102)
This is a SSNRA. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because the SSRIs made me feel like I was on crack. Yeah. They made me feel like I was on meth. yeah. I was like, uh-uh, I don't like this.

Matt (01:19:03.854)
Yeah, well they snort SSRIs in prison

Jess (01:19:06.126)
Like I need to be down. I'm too much as it is

Matt (01:19:10.85)
Yeah, they snort SSRIs in prison to get high.

Jess (01:19:14.102)
Yeah, like Will Butern for sure. Yeah.

Matt (01:19:15.906)
For sure will be. Well, buterin' is a crazy drug.

Jess (01:19:18.71)
It really is. I've been on that before too, but it did not work for me.

Matt (01:19:22.39)
Yeah, it's such a query. You know what it was originally made for? What? Smoking cessation.

Jess (01:19:27.852)
Yeah, no, I knew that because of they like I this is how much of an addict I am Okay, I didn't even smoke before I went to rehab. yeah, I picked up vaping in rehab Yeah, yeah, I'm like a fucking hate nicotine. What the fuck? Yeah, so now I want to quit that. It's just

Matt (01:19:38.756)
Same here.

Matt (01:19:45.984)
Yeah, I'm in a weird situation with that because I started vaping at treatment too and in my head I was like it's because I'm

Jess (01:19:54.862)
I couldn't have weed. That was me. That's what I thought.

Matt (01:19:58.392)
That's ultimately the truth. But what I would tell myself is that the flavor, like I love the flavor. The same. And then it was like, I tried to quit and it got worse. And I was like, no.

Jess (01:20:07.842)
Yeah, that's what I thought. said everybody was like, you're gonna be hooked when you get out of here. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna go buy one. Got out and bought one. I was like, yep, they were right.

Matt (01:20:16.514)
Nicotine is, it gets a bad rap. Cause the delivery method is typically the problem, not the nicotine. It's actually, nicotine is really good for you. It is, it's like the most effective nootropic that you can possibly ingest. And so like, there's like the ab-

Jess (01:20:22.218)
Yeah, exactly.

I don't know about that.

Jess (01:20:31.096)
Wow.

But feel like it kinda made my anxiety worse.

Matt (01:20:36.566)
yeah, it's a stimulant.

Jess (01:20:38.478)
feel like I was better off overall at rehab when I wasn't smoking and when I wasn't taking Suboxone.

Matt (01:20:46.444)
I mean, dude, homeostasis is natural. Yeah. Right? Like we're, we were created to not be ingesting all of this.

Jess (01:20:54.464)
Yeah, of course I felt better.

Matt (01:20:57.358)
And then we enter recovery and it's like everybody, you know, that's another crazy part It's like there's this massive stigma in the recovery community around medications and it's like go into the Wherever you go to meetings. They have a rack of pamphlets Okay, so there's one called medications and other outside whatever Outside it's outside that pamphlet

Jess (01:21:14.861)
yeah, they do.

Jess (01:21:20.078)
Outside sources or something help, but now we're talking about though. Okay

Matt (01:21:28.054)
And it's really eye-opening. compare what that is telling you, which I think it was like the 80s it was created. Read what that is telling you and compare it to your experience with like what people are telling you. No, the people in the room. Because it's like we're not supposed to have any, any opinion of outside.

Jess (01:21:39.096)
Yeah, like what my doctors are telling me.

Jess (01:21:49.592)
Yeah, but I don't care what they say about that. I don't agree.

Matt (01:21:53.708)
Yeah, but now you have to deal with it. True. Right now it's like you.

Jess (01:21:57.09)
You have to deal with. And that's why, but that's why I'm kind of not like, I'm kind of like you. not like, like I do do the 12 steps and I'm working on it, but I've been stuck on step eight for like almost a year. And it's like, I don't know. I'm not totally committed to AA. I feel like I'm kind of on the fence sometimes. So I don't know. Yeah. It's just.

Matt (01:22:22.894)
No, you can tell, because you're on step eight for a year. But when Bill and Bob created the, you know, six steps, but when they started doing this, they would do it in like 15 minutes. And then the whole point of it was to like go to the next room and help the person in there.

Jess (01:22:33.898)
I know. That's crazy.

Jess (01:22:41.346)
I and I wish it was more like that now. I wish it was more about like, you know, when they say they used to go on calls and like go out and actually help people. Like I wish I could do that because we did that at Sober Living one time. A guy relapsed and we had to go like help him out, you know, and that I liked. I being a part of that. So I'd like to do more of helping addicts in a positive way.

Matt (01:23:03.958)
Yeah, you can yeah, yeah, can you you can It's weird that you stopped at step eight Yeah, cuz

Jess (01:23:06.925)
Yeah.

Jess (01:23:11.182)
Yeah, I don't know why. I've already said sorry to a lot of people. It's not like I fear saying sorry. Yeah, that's step nine. very apologetic. Well, step eight is making a list of all the people you've harmed. Yeah. So I know I don't understand why I stopped there. Yeah.

Matt (01:23:26.37)
I don't know, maybe...

Jess (01:23:28.366)
But I also started smoking weed again, so that could be why. They have? Yeah, you're- So I'm like Cali sober, but I think I should stop smoking weed too though. I think I was happier without it.

Matt (01:23:43.694)
cognitive dissonance, right? Yeah, that's it. Okay.

Jess (01:23:44.856)
Nah.

Jess (01:23:48.216)
But it's because I moved back in with my husband and he smoked, so...

Matt (01:23:52.622)
Okay, so how do you feel about your recovery post smoking weed?

Jess (01:23:56.558)
I feel kind of, I feel okay, because I don't know, it doesn't make me want to do anything else. It just helps my anxiety sometimes. Sometimes I think it makes it worse. it's kind of a slippery slope. Yeah, that's why I think I'll just quit that too. I just want to quit it all. I don't want anything.

Matt (01:24:04.302)
You know what's interesting is

Anxiety? Slippery slip.

Jess (01:24:18.316)
Except my Cymbalta. Because that's for depression. Like I said, I'll cry with that. Yeah, that part's real. Like that part. But I think that's it. Because I wasn't big on opioids. It's mainly benzos. So I don't think I need the Spoxin. I was fine before without it. I turned the pill in. Crazy. Yeah, that was crazy. And then so...

Matt (01:24:24.758)
Chemical imbalances are real thing.

Matt (01:24:39.01)
The whole you getting on some box and things.

Jess (01:24:44.394)
And now I feel like if I wasn't on this box and I feel like I would have never started smoking weed, I feel like it made me too up that I wanted to calm down. yeah.

Matt (01:24:55.926)
Recovery is.

Jess (01:24:57.358)
A wild variety as well. It is. Yeah. But for those of their who are out there, you know, feeling alone, like I want them to know they're not alone. That it's okay if they're getting by like that, you know? Like it's working for me. I'm like I have my own card and I have my own card before. I my own place, didn't have my own place before. I've kept this job since I've been sober. I've been at the same place. So.

Matt (01:25:05.836)
Yeah, I mean

Matt (01:25:24.226)
Yeah, I-

Jess (01:25:25.515)
That's unheard of for me, so.

Matt (01:25:27.308)
The first eye-opening moment around peer support that I had was one of my really good friends. He was like, well, how do know when somebody's in recovery? Right? How do you know when somebody's in recovery?

Jess (01:25:37.678)
Well, I think when it's like when they're not messing up their lives when when they're not doing anything that takes away from their life Okay, like when you're adding to your life when you're trying to be a better person Okay, like I'm always working on myself every day to be a better person like if I don't meditate and I don't go to the gym Like I can't like yeah, I can't do life. I have to do these things and go to meetings to feel better I have to or I know

All real apps. Yeah. I know it.

Matt (01:26:09.986)
Yeah, so he told me, and this is like a core part of the philosophy, which this was a whole C-car thing, you know, anyway, it's, they, the whole core of the philosophy is that you are in recovery when and if you say you are. And what this does is it opens the door for the guy that's literally under the bridge over there to start walking the road of recovery today without being fully abstinent, without going to these rooms, without whatever.

Jess (01:26:23.374)
Mm-hmm, exactly.

Jess (01:26:36.022)
Sometimes you can't quit everything right away. Like I would feel like I was doing too many things to quit it all right away. No, that's the thing I like to talk about though. I was very fortunate because I detox myself off of Xanax more times than I can count. That that got to be a normal feeling for me. Like throwing up. And detoxing. That was normal. Like it's fucking crazy because I am very lucky that I'm still even here.

Matt (01:26:43.241)
Did you ever have seizures?

Matt (01:27:02.445)
really luck.

Jess (01:27:06.154)
Like that I'm alive. Cause I would go and man, I would drive on Xanax. I would do all kinds of things on Xanax and drink.

Matt (01:27:15.694)
Have you heard our episode on Benzos?

Jess (01:27:20.256)
I did. That's the one I watched.

Matt (01:27:24.05)
It's like a very, it's more common than not to, like in severe benzo addiction to enter that realm of like having seizures.

Jess (01:27:33.847)
I know I can't believe I never have. Yeah. I'm shocked. Honestly.

Matt (01:27:38.486)
Yeah, like that is the most dangerous.

Jess (01:27:40.942)
But also it kept me, I that's what I kept doing it because there were no consequences really. Like my husband said, he was like, Jessica, you look so innocent. It's time for you to deal with what you've done. It's time for you to deal with the repercussions because you've never had to before.

Matt (01:27:58.348)
Was this like around the time of the?

Jess (01:28:00.44)
the meth thing and the divorce and all that when I went to rehab the second time this past. So I've been sober, it'll be two years, four, four, but that was like from pills. So that was two years ago, almost. Yeah.

Matt (01:28:15.95)
crazy. So pills are crazy.

Jess (01:28:19.15)
They are. But see, I loved them because you could just take it. Do anything, like you don't have to drink something, it doesn't take a long time, all you do is take it. You can hide it. Yeah, so not good, but yeah. But I'm feeling, I'm figuring out healthier ways to deal with things, you know? Like I go run, I run, I'm a runner. That sucks. So, no, I love it. I get healthy endorphins, I get high naturally.

Matt (01:28:23.278)
You don't to

Matt (01:28:45.71)
friend that was like, you should come run with us. then he like took a picture of his analytics from the run. 18, he's been running for a year. 18 miles in one run.

Jess (01:28:56.398)
I'm about like two miles. Yeah. Can't do A mile maybe. Yeah. And I'm talking about like a 15 minute mile or 12 minute mile, okay? I don't run fast.

Matt (01:29:07.352)
I started running like a year and a half ago and I did it for a few months and I was like, yeah, I gotta find something else to do.

Jess (01:29:16.11)
You're a lifting weight kind of guy, yeah. I'm better at leg day than I am arm strength, so that's why I'm more comfortable being a dancer and swim team, yeah.

Matt (01:29:27.854)
Well, the only college class that I got an A in was advanced ballroom.

Jess (01:29:31.118)
Wow, well I did dance my whole life. Yeah, that was my thing. I wanted to be a ballerina I still to this day can't watch Center Stage or Save the Last Dance without balling like a baby because I'm like that should be me Because I did ballet since I was two and a half until and I was an adult so

Matt (01:29:50.54)
is a fucking fucked up sport.

Jess (01:29:52.15)
Yeah, it is. That's why my knees are fucked. Yeah

Matt (01:29:56.632)
The pressure is so insane.

Jess (01:29:58.3)
yeah, and then top black perfectionist swan swan for the first time my favorite I Love me like who knows and Natalie Portman and I love how dark it is Yeah, really relate with it. Like I mean, I just love it. I love it. I love how artistic it is.

Matt (01:30:16.142)
It was interesting. I saw it for the first time like maybe a few weeks ago

Jess (01:30:19.79)
That's funny this guy and me were just talking about that on Saturday Black Swan Yeah, it vicious but that is real I mean that's how it on dancers like eating grapefruit and like being that skinny Like that's how it is. That's the reality of it and I was so skinny and that's the thing my mom will be like That's when you looked healthy like when I was anorexic So she gives me shit all the time for my son being overweight. So that's a lot, you know

Matt (01:30:24.462)
What a vicious movie.

Jess (01:30:50.168)
So like being a perfectionist, it's really big on like, that was really part of my story, like trying to be perfect all the time.

Matt (01:31:00.374)
Yeah, that's all that movie's about.

Jess (01:31:01.858)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Matt (01:31:04.61)
such a crazy movie. Okay, anything else you want to say?

Jess (01:31:08.438)
Nah, that was about it.

Matt (01:31:10.414)
Alright, well I appreciate your time and thank you for coming in.

Jess (01:31:13.218)
Thank you for having me.

Matt (01:31:17.944)
Thanks for listening to My Last Relapse. I'm Matt Handy, the founder of Harmony Grove Behavioral Health, Houston, Texas, where our mission is to provide compassionate, evidence-based care for anyone facing addiction, mental health challenges, and co-occurring disorders. Find out more at HarmonyGroveBH.com. Follow and subscribe to My Last Relapse on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you like to stream podcasts.

Got a question for us? Leave a message or voicemail at mylastrelapse.com. If you're feeling overwhelmed or struggling, you don't have to face it alone. Reaching out for support is a sign of strength, and help is always available. If you or anyone you know needs help, give us a call 24 hours a day at 888-691-8295.